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The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

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Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#231

Post by cornholio »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #170
koonsolo wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me how a tech/startup oriented forum like HN is so negative towards crypto. I think it's insane that someone invented an algorithm to transfer value over the internet, without the involvement of a central party. Basically as soon as it has a tiny bit of value, you can transfer it, and so it has value. It goes so far that you could store the private key in your head, and therefore use your head as…

Is it though? I am pretty sure that building an anonymous payment system for illegal trades is possible without crypto. I have not seen a legitimate use of crypto yet. Not even once.

I think if we were trying to build a payment system for illegal use, what we would end up would look very much like crypto. This in itself should speak volumes.

Of course, for my part I certainly wouldn't be able to independently come up with proof of work chains, the major contribution of Satoshi. Something like Wei b-money with a super-peer network that broadcasts transactions and countersigns those that are legitimate/first. It wouldn't have the strong anti-double-spending features of Bitcoin, but it would work much as current proof of stake coins, as long as the super-peer cabal was not majority-compromised.

I know I could come up with it because I toyed with these concepts in the space of filesharing protocols before 2010, but decided the whole e-cash approach was too heavy. Always wondered what it could have led to if I implemented it back then.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#232

Post by monero-xmr »

cm277 wrote: post #229
monero-xmr wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has a minimal value but it’s far less than its monetary premium. If you are investing in gold (as many mainstream wealth managers and central banks do) then you aren’t assessing “what is the minimum my investment can fall to based on fundamental industrial utility?” The investment thesis for gold completely ignores any potential for demonetization or else the investment is suicidal.

That's fair. But then your investment thesis is based on the value given to gold by large institutions that can/will create a price floor. Which yes, is absolutely based on trust-in-future-value, but in the case of gold that trust is widespread and tied to large, centralized financial institutions and thus regulations and eventually fiat (because in the end you will have to convert to fiat). I can see that getting re…

Despite my username I am not a maximalist on any technology. Ethereum is very interesting and there are a number of scaling solutions (referred to as “layer 2s” or L2s) that have the same guarantees as the main chain but are far cheaper and faster (see Optimism and Arbitrum).

In Bitcoin the lightning network is slowly but steadily making progress amongst the faithful. It is also a faster and cheaper network.

Monero is the currency I recommend heavily because it is privacy-by-default - anyone who uses Monero is not broadcasting their intentions. This is an extremely valuable aspect of financial freedom and it gives me long term faith in its utility.

The key thing to remember is that all value is subjective. Someone will pay infinite money for a glass of water when they are dying of thirst and no money when they are drowning.

If a large portion of society values digital assets, then they have value. There is really nothing more complex than this for anyone to understand.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#233

Post by tasuki »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #86

The success of crypto is very strange/alien to me. The scam seems so obvious, and yet it "works". I guess that I tend to underestimate how many people love gambling with money and/or are attracted to get-rich-quick schemes. There is seemingly also a small fraction of true believers, idealists and evangelists who seem convinced that all of this could replace both states and banks without ending up much worse.

> The scam seems so obvious

If it is do obvious that all cryptocurrency is a scam, would you mind explaining why?

Do you think national currencies are also a scam?

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#234

Post by koonsolo »

cornholio wrote: post #230
koonsolo wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your claim is that all the developers working on Bitcoin, Ethereum and Monero are not able to understand it? I have a master's degree in CS, and I'm not able to understand it?

No, the claim is that technical people which do not have a conflict of interest are more likely to share their real understanding. Of course Solidity developers of the latest rugpull DeFi know very well what they are doing, but they are unlikely to come out in the open and confess it. Some do anonymously though, go read some Coinfessions horror stories.

> do not have a conflict of interest are more likely to share their real understanding.

Understanding of what? The technical side? It seems HN seems hell bent over discussing all the scams and get-rich schemes, and completely discards the cool technology and things that it enables (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31996612 again, as stated before).

> the latest rugpull DeFi

Yep, exactly as I stated, focus on all the scams. That has absolutely nothing to do with technical expertise you know.

Edit: crypto is a cool technology, and has at least 1 use-case (see link above). Try to argue with that instead of sidetracking the discussion towards the scams and get-rich-quick schemes.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#235

Post by cornholio »

koonsolo wrote: post #234
cornholio wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the claim is that technical people which do not have a conflict of interest are more likely to share their real understanding. Of course Solidity developers of the latest rugpull DeFi know very well what they are doing, but they are unlikely to come out in the open and confess it. Some do anonymously though, go read some Coinfessions horror stories.

> do not have a conflict of interest are more likely to share their real understanding. Understanding of what? The technical side? It seems HN seems hell bent over discussing all the scams and get-rich schemes, and completely discards the cool technology and things that it enables (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31996612 again, as stated before). > the latest rugpull DeFi Yep, exactly as I stated, focus on…

You cannot divorce the technical side from the garbage crypto brings. Yes, crypto has good privacy preserving properties, that unfortunately are equally effective for $5 as they are for $5 billion. The legitimate use case for that is infinitesimal compared to the abuse potential, and even if we accept the whole black-market use of crypto as legitimate, that's still a small fraction of the speculation-driven valuation.

Those who understand the technical features can see there is nothing there to justify the hype, and rightly conclude it's largely a scam on a fundamental level.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#236

Post by stephc_int13 »

tasuki wrote: post #233
stephc_int13 wrote: post #86

The success of crypto is very strange/alien to me. The scam seems so obvious, and yet it "works". I guess that I tend to underestimate how many people love gambling with money and/or are attracted to get-rich-quick schemes. There is seemingly also a small fraction of true believers, idealists and evangelists who seem convinced that all of this could replace both states and banks without ending up much worse.

> The scam seems so obvious If it is do obvious that all cryptocurrency is a scam, would you mind explaining why? Do you think national currencies are also a scam?

Yeah, it is pretty easy, crypto value is built either on Ponzi or on the Greater Fool principle.

National currencies, issued by states are not a scam.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#237

Post by SparkyMcUnicorn »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #236
tasuki wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The scam seems so obvious If it is do obvious that all cryptocurrency is a scam, would you mind explaining why? Do you think national currencies are also a scam?

Yeah, it is pretty easy, crypto value is built either on Ponzi or on the Greater Fool principle. National currencies, issued by states are not a scam.

So crypto is more similar to stocks? Saying they're all scams just because of that seems harsh.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#239

Post by koonsolo »

cornholio wrote: post #235
koonsolo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do not have a conflict of interest are more likely to share their real understanding. Understanding of what? The technical side? It seems HN seems hell bent over discussing all the scams and get-rich schemes, and completely discards the cool technology and things that it enables (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31996612 again, as stated before). > the latest rugpull DeFi Yep, exactly as I stated, focus on…

You cannot divorce the technical side from the garbage crypto brings. Yes, crypto has good privacy preserving properties, that unfortunately are equally effective for $5 as they are for $5 billion. The legitimate use case for that is infinitesimal compared to the abuse potential, and even if we accept the whole black-market use of crypto as legitimate, that's still a small fraction of the speculation-driven valuation…

Just because something is overhyped doesn't mean it's total crap.
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