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CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

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Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#51

Post by chris222 »

quonn wrote: post #38
zeristor wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some larger charging stations with large battery banks that can store enough electricity for fast charging.

It's more about being able to deliver it when many cars are charging. Charging speeds go down considerably. I typically don't get the maximum possible speed and often am far off and sometimes that depends on the number of cars charging.

Your actual limitation when the site is full is usually the utility transformer. Tesla have been installing many 8 stall and even 12 stall sites with 750kVA pad transformers.

If they had a Tesla Megapack as a buffer for example the transformer wouldn’t be the bottleneck as the output is greater from the Megapack.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#52

Post by adrian_b »

guerby wrote: post #47
adrian_b wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that there might be cheaper LFP, that is why I have written "after a short googling". $1000 per kWh was the first price that I have found for a 5 kWh LFP battery and I am lazy now to search for a cheaper one, so this is a real price, even if it is likely not the best price. For a much larger battery, a quick search shows EUR 20000 for 50 kWh, i.e. EUR 400/kWh (though this price is older and now it might hav…

5 kWh LFP battery with BMS and user serviçable rack format from a reputable brand in the USA is $1,649.99 so $330/kWh, see here for example: https://www.currentconnected.com/product/sk48v100/ You can easily find other brands for less than $300/kWh, and plenty of review/teardowns on youtube. Edit: adding "Typical capacity at 80% DOD @.5C Rate is over 7000 Cycles" so if you bring your battery to 7000 80% cycles at 0.5C…

Yes, that is a good price, but AFAIK all the US prices are quoted without taxes, to make them seem smaller, unlike in most other countries, so with taxes included I assume that the real price is about $400/kWh, which matches the price that I have found meanwhile for a similar battery in UK.

Therefore, the current price for Na-ion batteries is only 3 times less than LFP (the endurance and lifetime are claimed to be about the same for Na-ion and LFP).

Still, this price ratio of 3 remains a significant difference and it is very likely that in the future the price of Na-ion will decrease at a much higher rate than the cost of the mature lithium-based batteries, when more manufacturers will begin to make Na-ion batteries.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#53

Post by chris222 »

thechao wrote: post #27
Zigurd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is an immense market for lower-cost EVs. They also do not have as far to drive as most Americans. This battery tech could be less suitable for the US than China and still have an enormous market.

I suspect most Americans don't drive as far as Americans do. I've got a hella commute & it's only 21 miles, each way. Getting to my parents is 55 miles. My in-laws are 205 — but stop for lunch anyways .

It’s not the average drive. The p95 will be a lot higher in North America than China or Europe. Theres also elevation, winters and our obsession with going 70-80mph on highways.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#54

Post by dzhiurgis »

hunglee2 wrote: post #9

There is no way that CATL is going to escape the US policy of suppressing China's technological development. Batteries are going to follow SC's - very likely next in line - and Tesla's reliance on CATL batteries is the weak point upon which Musk's empire will fall. Destroying CATL will probably set back EV adoption by some years, replacement suppliers will surely be built if industrial policy continues to be applied

You can bad CATL and Tesla can continue to serve remaining 90% of EV market

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#56

Post by throwtheacctawy »

Tade0 wrote: post #32

I've been following the developments around this chemistry since the time Tiamat announced their sodium-ion battery and it appears that in this case it's not all sunshine and rainbows: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-06/catl-s...

No post body was provided.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#57

Post by akira2501 »

chris222 wrote: post #53
thechao wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect most Americans don't drive as far as Americans do. I've got a hella commute & it's only 21 miles, each way. Getting to my parents is 55 miles. My in-laws are 205 — but stop for lunch anyways .

It’s not the average drive. The p95 will be a lot higher in North America than China or Europe. Theres also elevation, winters and our obsession with going 70-80mph on highways.

Obsession? The higher the speed the greater the capacity of the road, and when freight has to travel 2000 miles by road, the 10mph/h difference makes a considerable impact on the time. Isn't it the case that Germany completely removes speed limits for some portions of it's "Autobahns?" What "obsession" drives that decision?

There's this assumption that all the negative qualities of road are down to malignable user behavior issues. It's an unusually hostile way to view the problem.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#58

Post by adrian_b »

Tade0 wrote: post #32

I've been following the developments around this chemistry since the time Tiamat announced their sodium-ion battery and it appears that in this case it's not all sunshine and rainbows: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-06/catl-s...

Maybe CATL will not be able to deliver what they have promised, but that article is just a piece of garbage that does not prove anything.

I could not read it on Bloomberg, but the same article seems to be also available at:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/are-investors...

The article begins with a photograph of "A CATL battery pack on display at the IAA Transportation show in Hanover, Germany, on Monday, Sept. 19, 2022".

The article does not say whether the pictured battery pack is one with Na-ion or just some random battery pack that does not have any relationship with the article.

If the battery pack displayed at Hanover had been a Na-ion, then it would have been weird for CATL to show it if they had discovered problems that would have prevented its production. Also, the article says that CATL have announced last month again that they will start the production in 2023. It would be weird for them to discover just now problems that have not been discovered earlier.

After this introduction, the article says repeatedly that despite what CATL hoped, the Na-ion batteries are not good, but then the article fails to provide even a single logically-coherent sentence that says what exactly is not good about them.

Until anyone else provides some real information about what might be wrong about the CATL Na-ion batteries, this Bloomberg "analysis" can be safely ignored.

There is no doubt that the Na-ion batteries can work fine at energy/mass ratios somewhat lower than lithium-iron phosphate batteries.

CATL claims that they have found some means to increase the energy/mass ratio to a value intermediate between that of LFP and that of lithium-nickel/cobalt batteries.

It is possible that whatever they have done could affect negatively other battery parameters, but with the possible exception of the lifetime, such problems should have been identified much earlier and CATL should not have continued to say that everything is on track, so even as a rumor report that lacks any concrete information the Bloomberg "analysis" looks more like wishful thinking than like anything plausible.

The few numbers given in the "analysis" are wrong. It is said that Na-ion would need an 8 times increase in energy density, which is a claim that would be valid only about the ancient lead-acid batteries. Na-ion needs only a 2 times ... 2.5 times increase in energy density to become competitive in transportation applications.

There is some nonsense claim about Na-ion batteries "in certain formulations", which, even if it were true, would say nothing about the CATL batteries, because those do not use those "certain formulations", whichever those might be.

I have rarely read any article so illogical as this one.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#59

Post by simonebrunozzi »

jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

It would have been nice if you did read the article before commenting. You might be right about HN and battery articles, most of the time, but in this case it's quite a credible technology and manufacturer.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#60

Post by tuatoru »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #4

Sodium ion is a better fit for houses and grid storage than vehicles or consumer electronics.

Building (house, commercial building, factory) and grid four- to eight-hour storage (stationary storage) is potentially a much bigger market than vehicle storage, espcially as processes that now use carbon-intensive fuels are replaced.
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