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CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

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Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#41

Post by scythe »

adrian_b wrote: post #29
quonn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing to LFP the advantages are not that big. It might be cheaper and scale better. Charging speed is now mostly limited by public charger speed and good enough. I expect sodium batteries to have a big impact in cars that cost 25k or less.

The only significant advantage compared to LFP appears to be the price. However the price advantage is more than enough. After a short googling, it appears that I could buy right now a battery large enough to supply the energy for one day for my house (5 kWh), either as sodium-ion for $650 or as lithium-iron phosphate for $5000 (with very similar specifications for endurance and size). The former I could buy at any t…

That LFP price can't be right. That's $1000/kWh! Batteries have been cheaper than that for at least half a decade. And I'm pretty sure Na-ion (at room temperature) hasn't even hit the market yet! Googling "sodium-ion battery price" just gave me textbooks.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#42

Post by scythe »

nagisa wrote: post #16
noipv4 wrote: post #7

How easy is it to obtain sodium from common salt?

NaCl is not an applicable source material for these batteries. Na₂CO₃ is going to be the it, for better or for worse.

Mostly because mining trona (actually Na3H(CO3)2*2H2O) is cheaper than the Solvay process. It's not a matter of possibility, it's just the path of least resistance.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#43

Post by auscad »

jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

CATL is the world’s biggest EV battery manufacturer, and they’re planning to mass produce these batteries in the next few months. This isn’t your run of the mill university research press release.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#44

Post by nicoburns »

chongli wrote: post #35
api wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lab bench to product can be 15 years or more, so doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. The other hard thing is beating Li-Ion. It would have to be a lot better or cheaper to beat the economy of scale. Just a little better won’t displace the incumbent.

That's the thing: Lithium ion batteries are not a fixed technology, they're a moving target. They've evolved dramatically and encompass many different chemistries since they first appeared in the lab in the 70's. But since they're all grouped under the name "Lithium ion" people just think of them as a fixed, static, mature technology.

That's true, but sodium ion batteries are also not a new technology.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#45

Post by 404mm »

jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

I’m more worried that $5k savings per EV will translate to $500 per EV for the end customer. More than anything, I welcome the switch away from lithium for both economic and environmental reasons.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#46

Post by adrian_b »

scythe wrote: post #41
adrian_b wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only significant advantage compared to LFP appears to be the price. However the price advantage is more than enough. After a short googling, it appears that I could buy right now a battery large enough to supply the energy for one day for my house (5 kWh), either as sodium-ion for $650 or as lithium-iron phosphate for $5000 (with very similar specifications for endurance and size). The former I could buy at any t…

That LFP price can't be right. That's $1000/kWh! Batteries have been cheaper than that for at least half a decade. And I'm pretty sure Na-ion (at room temperature) hasn't even hit the market yet! Googling "sodium-ion battery price" just gave me textbooks.

I believe that there might be cheaper LFP, that is why I have written "after a short googling".

$1000 per kWh was the first price that I have found for a 5 kWh LFP battery and I am lazy now to search for a cheaper one, so this is a real price, even if it is likely not the best price.

For a much larger battery, a quick search shows EUR 20000 for 50 kWh, i.e. EUR 400/kWh (though this price is older and now it might have increased). It is normal for the price per kWh to decrease at very large capacities.

Also, the fact that LFP were cheaper than this a decade ago is irrelevant, because googling about their price finds that "lithium prices have surged over 700% since the start of 2021, which has led to a big jump in battery pack prices" (written in May 2022).

However, Na-ion batteries for solar energy storage have certainly already hit the market, e.g.:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SUNPOK-48V-5kwh-Sodiu...

EDIT: After an extra search, I have seen an offer for a LFP 5 kWh battery @ $2000, so it looks like the $400/kWh price is available for lower capacities too. Nevertheless, this price is less reliable than the higher prices seen initially, because it is only for some kind of pre-order with unknown delivery time.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#47

Post by guerby »

adrian_b wrote: post #46
scythe wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That LFP price can't be right. That's $1000/kWh! Batteries have been cheaper than that for at least half a decade. And I'm pretty sure Na-ion (at room temperature) hasn't even hit the market yet! Googling "sodium-ion battery price" just gave me textbooks.

I believe that there might be cheaper LFP, that is why I have written "after a short googling". $1000 per kWh was the first price that I have found for a 5 kWh LFP battery and I am lazy now to search for a cheaper one, so this is a real price, even if it is likely not the best price. For a much larger battery, a quick search shows EUR 20000 for 50 kWh, i.e. EUR 400/kWh (though this price is older and now it might hav…

5 kWh LFP battery with BMS and user serviçable rack format from a reputable brand in the USA is $1,649.99 so $330/kWh, see here for example:

https://www.currentconnected.com/product/sk48v100/

You can easily find other brands for less than $300/kWh, and plenty of review/teardowns on youtube.

Edit: adding "Typical capacity at 80% DOD @.5C Rate is over 7000 Cycles" so if you bring your battery to 7000 80% cycles at 0.5C you got 28000 kWh out of it, so 0.059 USD/kWh out of the battery (and you still have 4 kWh usable in the battery so many more cycles).

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#48

Post by caycep »

jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

I think one underlying current is market prediction - i.e. if CATL's solution is more widely available as a supplier to the larger market, will they eventually "TSMC" Tesla's battery tech?

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#49

Post by chris222 »

auscad wrote: post #43
jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

CATL is the world’s biggest EV battery manufacturer, and they’re planning to mass produce these batteries in the next few months. This isn’t your run of the mill university research press release.

You can already buy these cells in home sogens starting early next year.

https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#50

Post by chris222 »

throwaway294566 wrote: post #31
jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

Yes. My question is always "show me the shop where I can buy it". Never an answer ;)

Bluetti (maker of sogens) will be using these cells early next year.

https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022

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