Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 183 posts

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#91

Post by diob »

version_five wrote: post #43
diob wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling you've never actually been there. They do have an issue with forced confessions, but you're much more likely to be arrested or worse (shot) in the USA for no reason. But beyond that, this is an over simplification of something that stems from multiple things, not some singular root reason. And if you want data, look no further than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in... for w…

> And if you want data, look no further than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in... for why your take is absolutely bonkers. This doesn't refute the OP's claims, and I think could support them. OP is saying (to paraphrase) that Japan's tough on crime stance is a deterrent, and so there is less crime, and so fewer people incarcerated. Also, I don't think a reasonable person is worried about ge…

I met multiple individuals on my last trip to Australia who commented on how they felt extremely unsafe in the USA (hearing gunshots at night, seeing shootings on the news). Some were native Australians, others were from places abroad, such as Japan.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#92

Post by asiachick »

No, because the charms come from the culture and the culture will never be replicated elsewhere. Things like, almost no one steals, people return dropped wallets, people don't destroy vending machines (vandalism is low), people try not to annoy others (few house parties, instead rent a bar, practice music in rented music rooms, not at home, it's legal to drink in public but no one does it except at parks and no one gets rowdy, etc... etc...

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#93

Post by JamesianP »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #52
another_story wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is safe in part because theyre culturally homogenous. That culture drills in a sense of obligation to the point of being oppressive. Obligation of the children to the parents, the parents to the company and even the company to society at large. It creates stability, but often at the expense of flexibility. Then there's the sense of shame when you fail to live up to that obligation.

> It creates stability, but often at the expense of flexibility. Also at the expense of individualism. The freedom to think differently gives us many different issues in the western world. But I still think it's worth it. Making the most of one's life is important. Also I don't think law enforcement is the biggest factor in reducing crime. It doesn't eliminate the need for people to commit crimes, it just moves it to…

US culture doesn't trap people in minimum wage jobs their entire lives. Even fast food places have raises and promotions. Maybe you're being hyperbolic there? It does generally require people to work and try, which can appear impossible if they lack a working parent or other role model to help them believe they can do it. This is not something welfare solves though. It possibly makes it worse. Something like shop classes in schools (which used to exist) and apprenticeships would be a direct solution, because as we constantly hear, the jobs are there looking for people.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#94

Post by KptMarchewa »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #60
throwaway-9000 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is also one of the least diverse developed countries with well over 90% of inhabitants being Yamato Japanese. It is unsurprising that it would be safe, clean, and functional.

Is it really that unique? I just looked up the Czech Republic to find that it is 95% Czech[1] but nobody goes around writing articles about whether it is possible to replicate how safe, clean, and functional the Czech Republic is. Finland also appears to be about 90% Finnish (with 5% Swedish). Portugal appears to be 95% Portuguese. South Korea is also over 90%. Ireland is 85% Irish. I'm tired of Googling but the more…

All of those places are very safe, more so than most of United States. I'd add my country, Poland to that. Street level crime is very rare.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#95

Post by barry-cotter »

eru wrote: post #76
airza wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Showing a causal relationship here would involve explaining why many other western countries with much more relaxed policing laws also seem to be safer than the US. I would guess a more likely reason is that more foot traffic reduces crime. Also purely anecdotally, I have been let off with a warning in Japan before; certainly their prisons are draconian (or so I’ve heard). I’m also not sure how you could be arrested…

> Showing a causal relationship here would involve explaining why many other western countries with much more relaxed policing laws also seem to be safer than the US. I would guess a more likely reason is that more foot traffic reduces crime. Just looking at the US (and those other countries) over time as well would also be interesting. If memory serves right, violent crime in the US increased between 1970s to 1990s…

> If memory serves right, violent crime in the US increased between 1970s to 1990s and has since decreased.

From 1960 to the mid 1990s crime rates in the US almost quadrupled. They’re now at about double what they were in 1960[1]. People adopted measures to avoid crime. They left urban areas, greatly increased security measures of all types, dropped the assumption that most people were generally trustworthy. Without those measures of adaptation things would not have improved. Those are costs and they’re ongoing. In the 1960s and 2020s the US had large scale urban riots and each time people learned the lesson that they couldn’t trust the government to protect them and their property from rioters. But if you live far from dense concentrations of people riots are very unlikely. Thus suburbanisation.

[1] https://www.strongnation.org/about/our-organization/our-hist...

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#96

Post by astrange »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #86

It's not crime. It's cleanliness. Japanese people are really clean. That's really the main reason why things everywhere are charming. There are cities with similar layouts to Tokyo but they aren't charming simply because those alleyways get really dirty. The griminess influences everything including the businesses and the crowds it attracts. It ends up influencing the whole flavor of the city.

Dirty cities aren’t a matter of people cleaning them so much as industrial processes and car fumes not dirtying them.

There’s also the different materials they use - everything in Tokyo is covered in concrete (not sure if that’s good or bad) but buildings also strangely tend to be covered in what I’d describe as bathroom tiles. I wondered about this, but realized it’s just so humid they’d be growing mold otherwise.

Also if you’re comparing to NYC, it’s just particularly dirty because everyone leaves their garbage on the street, since the government is incapable of organizing anything better.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#97

Post by Kranar »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #60
throwaway-9000 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is also one of the least diverse developed countries with well over 90% of inhabitants being Yamato Japanese. It is unsurprising that it would be safe, clean, and functional.

Is it really that unique? I just looked up the Czech Republic to find that it is 95% Czech[1] but nobody goes around writing articles about whether it is possible to replicate how safe, clean, and functional the Czech Republic is. Finland also appears to be about 90% Finnish (with 5% Swedish). Portugal appears to be 95% Portuguese. South Korea is also over 90%. Ireland is 85% Irish. I'm tired of Googling but the more…

Finland and South Korea are absolutely held as a model of civilized society. Very low crime rates, very clean and very orderly. Don't know about Czech but it's possible that being culturally homogeneous is a necessary but insufficient condition, after all I'm sure most of us can name some very homogenous countries that are an absolute nightmare to live in. That said, Dubai and Singapore are also very safe and orderly but they are very culturally diverse, so who knows...

Does anyone know what Australia is like? I hear good things about it, and it is very homogeneous.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#98

Post by astrange »

asiachick wrote: post #92

No, because the charms come from the culture and the culture will never be replicated elsewhere. Things like, almost no one steals, people return dropped wallets, people don't destroy vending machines (vandalism is low), people try not to annoy others (few house parties, instead rent a bar, practice music in rented music rooms, not at home, it's legal to drink in public but no one does it except at parks and no one g…

Compared to the US you’re a lot more likely to live near a bar though. You can open businesses like bars on the ground floor of your house!

The US, which is supposedly capitalist, actually does all it can to stop any profitable use of residential areas to make sure people are already rich before they try buying in one.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#99

Post by thebradbain »

mradek wrote: post #66

Yeah but then you need something that people seem to get upset over. Culture. And that doesn’t mean getting stoned or acting weird or being narcissistic af, but having some basic moral and virtuous behavior. You see old people come out and start cleaning the stairs after a rain. I saw it first hand and thought wow this would never happen in the US. You see people get in line and let the people onboard the train out b…

Equally a fault of the people as it is the urban environment which shapes them…

> You can drink alcohol outside but in the US people would just be drunks everywhere and trash the place. And they trash the place without drinking.

Maybe if 95%+ of Americans weren’t indoctrinated since WWII with the concept of “a single family home and white picket fence” as the American Dream (and anything else is to be thought of as less than), Americans would grow up with a sense of and respect for shared space and environment. Instead we usually look at anything that is not our home/backyard/frontyard as “not ours” and thus “not important”. We see this in the lack of flagship public plazas/squares that you can usually find in even small European/South American/Asian towns, but also the continued shrinking of funding for libraries, neighborhood parks, etc.

If there’s no public realm in the first place, it’s no wonder most who grow up have no concept or respect for it. It’s a vicious cycle, and one many Americans (regardless of political affiliation) will insist is the “only” way, and actively fight anything else, since it’s all many know.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#100

Post by tdiggity »

atdrummond wrote: post #88
tdiggity wrote: post #72

In America, good luck. We can’t even get people to enter/exit a train orderly. It’s not an entirely fair comparison though. For example - trains in Japan stop at designated places so the doors line up with the paint markings. There aren’t any on Caltrain/Bart/nyc - so no one knows where to stand. And the conductors don’t have a consistent target. Or take a busy underground subway. Japan knows to stand on one side and…

BART has markers where the doors open. They only miss it on occasion. There was a big uproar when some new rumble strips didn’t have these markings a few years back ( https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/cao2nm/yo_bart_why... )

Oh nice, that’s great to hear. Is it this way at all stops? I’ve been away and haven’t ridden Bart for 7 years.
Post reply on HN