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Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

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Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#71

Post by eru »

largepeepee wrote: post #57
throwaway-9000 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is also one of the least diverse developed countries with well over 90% of inhabitants being Yamato Japanese. It is unsurprising that it would be safe, clean, and functional.

It's not a race thing, it's a trust and culture thing. There are diverse countries that have similar levels of safety like Singapore. If your government sucks, laws are poorly enforced or even maliciously enforced - there is low trust among the people, no respect for public spaces and no one follows the social norms.

I live in Singapore. Yes, it's also incredibly safe, clean, and functional. It's a very different place from Tokyo, though.

Chiang Mai in Thailand also seemed safe and trustworthy when I was there a few months ago: eg the locals casually left stuff outside and on their motorbikes, petty theft of unattended items seems to be no problem.

Our neighbour Malaysia seems to have more problems with these issues. Looking into the causes of the differences between countries would be interesting. I suspect in Singapore our development is at least partially the result of deliberate social engineering by LKY.

I can also tell you that after 40 years of 'actually existing socialism' vs 'social market economy', that East Germany had markedly lower trust and safety than West Germany. And the wounds still haven't healed. Switzerland has even higher trust.

You can see similar gaps in Taiwan/Hong Kong vs mainland China.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#72

Post by tdiggity »

In America, good luck. We can’t even get people to enter/exit a train orderly. It’s not an entirely fair comparison though. For example - trains in Japan stop at designated places so the doors line up with the paint markings. There aren’t any on Caltrain/Bart/nyc - so no one knows where to stand. And the conductors don’t have a consistent target.

Or take a busy underground subway. Japan knows to stand on one side and make way for walkers on the other. That isn’t happening in most of America.

But, I just went to Disney world, and that’s about as orderly/idyllic as I think we can get. When all the people there have a similar goal, and Disney has thought up all the processes to remove friction - like trash cans every X feet make it a beautiful place. Their crowd control is also top notch.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#73

Post by JasonFruit »

mradek wrote: post #66

Yeah but then you need something that people seem to get upset over. Culture. And that doesn’t mean getting stoned or acting weird or being narcissistic af, but having some basic moral and virtuous behavior. You see old people come out and start cleaning the stairs after a rain. I saw it first hand and thought wow this would never happen in the US. You see people get in line and let the people onboard the train out b…

I think you're describing the Midwest. People clear sidewalks and driveways for each other after a snow, unasked and uncompensated. People let each other off public transportation before crowding on. And... there are drunks everywhere. So two out of three.

But what I'm aiming at is this: in less urbanized areas of the United States, the sort of shared ideas that allow successful coexistence exist. It's largely the major cities where you cannot find it.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#74

Post by eru »

largepeepee wrote: post #70
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore's achieves "harmony" in their diverse city-state through severe authoritarian control. There's harmony because the state dictates their vison of harmony which all must abide by.

Maybe at first. Singapore had to make lots of tough decisions early on, and they fixed it early. Problems which still plague their neighbors to this day. I say today, the base economic situation of the people and the disparity of wealth is a bigger factor to what makes a country -overall safe or unsafe, which is what the thread is about and what I was replying to. Safety first.

When measured by income or accumulated wealth, Singapore has huge inequality.

When measured by things like access to good education, infrastructure, housing, things look more equal.

A big temper to any real authoritarian tendencies in Singapore is that it's easy for our inhabitants to vote with their feet: people can and do leave. Thanks to some special diplomatic deals, Singaporeans have special access to working visas for the US, too. So Singapore can only be as authoritarian as McDonald's: there's no vote for what goes onto a Big Mac, but if you don't like it, you can always go to Burger King.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#75

Post by eru »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #62
throwaway-9000 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is also one of the least diverse developed countries with well over 90% of inhabitants being Yamato Japanese. It is unsurprising that it would be safe, clean, and functional.

Why is that unsurprising? The implication being that racial diversity makes dysfunction, uncleanliness, and danger more likely (less surprising).

If anything, it's probably cultural diversity.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#76

Post by eru »

airza wrote: post #31
blue039 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're safe because their police make the US police look human. The amount of ways you can accidentally end up in prison with some extreme sentences is uncountable. I'd recommend watching any of the traveling channels to see their warnings on it for foreigners. Punishments for something even as simple as public intoxication can be comparatively severe when juxtaposed with, for example, the US where you might spend t…

Showing a causal relationship here would involve explaining why many other western countries with much more relaxed policing laws also seem to be safer than the US. I would guess a more likely reason is that more foot traffic reduces crime. Also purely anecdotally, I have been let off with a warning in Japan before; certainly their prisons are draconian (or so I’ve heard). I’m also not sure how you could be arrested…

> Showing a causal relationship here would involve explaining why many other western countries with much more relaxed policing laws also seem to be safer than the US. I would guess a more likely reason is that more foot traffic reduces crime.

Just looking at the US (and those other countries) over time as well would also be interesting.

If memory serves right, violent crime in the US increased between 1970s to 1990s and has since decreased. I don't think that development maps well to pedestrian traffic?

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#77

Post by rospaya »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #60
throwaway-9000 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is also one of the least diverse developed countries with well over 90% of inhabitants being Yamato Japanese. It is unsurprising that it would be safe, clean, and functional.

Is it really that unique? I just looked up the Czech Republic to find that it is 95% Czech[1] but nobody goes around writing articles about whether it is possible to replicate how safe, clean, and functional the Czech Republic is. Finland also appears to be about 90% Finnish (with 5% Swedish). Portugal appears to be 95% Portuguese. South Korea is also over 90%. Ireland is 85% Irish. I'm tired of Googling but the more…

Yeah a lot of those places are aldo pretty safe. Not that it proves a point but it doesn't prove yours as well.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#78

Post by chrischen »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #60
throwaway-9000 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is also one of the least diverse developed countries with well over 90% of inhabitants being Yamato Japanese. It is unsurprising that it would be safe, clean, and functional.

Is it really that unique? I just looked up the Czech Republic to find that it is 95% Czech[1] but nobody goes around writing articles about whether it is possible to replicate how safe, clean, and functional the Czech Republic is. Finland also appears to be about 90% Finnish (with 5% Swedish). Portugal appears to be 95% Portuguese. South Korea is also over 90%. Ireland is 85% Irish. I'm tired of Googling but the more…

I don’t know about those European places but South Korea and Taiwan are also safe… maybe not as clean.

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#79

Post by chrischen »

eru wrote: post #75
throwawaylinux wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that unsurprising? The implication being that racial diversity makes dysfunction, uncleanliness, and danger more likely (less surprising).

If anything, it's probably cultural diversity.

At least in America it’s the combination of racial diversity and racial inequality. That certainly creates a lot of justification for some crimes (when the system is perceived to be rigged against you anyways).

Re: Can Tokyo’s charms be replicated elsewhere?

#80

Post by mattzito »

JasonFruit wrote: post #73
mradek wrote: post #66

Yeah but then you need something that people seem to get upset over. Culture. And that doesn’t mean getting stoned or acting weird or being narcissistic af, but having some basic moral and virtuous behavior. You see old people come out and start cleaning the stairs after a rain. I saw it first hand and thought wow this would never happen in the US. You see people get in line and let the people onboard the train out b…

I think you're describing the Midwest. People clear sidewalks and driveways for each other after a snow, unasked and uncompensated. People let each other off public transportation before crowding on. And... there are drunks everywhere. So two out of three. But what I'm aiming at is this: in less urbanized areas of the United States, the sort of shared ideas that allow successful coexistence exist. It's largely the ma…

> It's largely the major cities where you cannot find it.

I would argue differently, and say that it's entirely a factor of density. The more people that are crammed into a small area, the more you will see the spectrum of human behavior in any given situation.

So, in the midwest you might see people clearing sidewalks and driveways for each other - I'm more familiar with the HOA that sends threatening letters to people for not shoveling fast enough. But you don't see both those things at the same time, so you can choose to focus on whichever you prefer.

In my experience in a large US city, people are incredibly kind and very much look out for each other, even strangers. I have many times seen strangers helping each other in situations, both minor and serious, and neighbors even more so. And sure, yes, I've seen people acting badly, but in general from living in both part of the country, people in the city are far and away nicer and more concerned about the welfare of those around them.

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