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‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

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Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#221

Post by tester756 »

lelanthran wrote: post #219
tester756 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people who grew poor reached PhD? 0.000x%? 0.x%? 1%? It raises bar

I'm not arguing that poverty doesn't raise the bar, I'm saying that the arguments being presented in this thread are that poverty is impossible to escape. Those of use that have escaped it know that you have to work harder for the same result, but this constant argument about poverty being inescapable is now tired and worn.

I think it is better to "advertise" poverty and its problems as very difficult to escape than saying something like "just get good" because it is kinda refocusing this problem on the person living in poverty

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#222

Post by Mezzie »

lelanthran wrote: post #218
Mezzie wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an advanced degree (not PhD, Master's) and I ended up poor again. Disability! If you grow up poor, you can make it out as long as nothing goes wrong. You have no grace. The clock's ticking. Oh, and you'd best be prepared to leave your family, friends, and anyone who has helped you to drown.

> Disability! If you grow up poor, you can make it out as long as nothing goes wrong. You have no grace. The clock's ticking. Hyperbole. As long as nothing major goes wrong. Lot's of things go wrong. As long as: 1. There is shelter, 2. There is rice and beans, 3. There is school, The outcome looks good. > Oh, and you'd best be prepared to leave your family, friends, and anyone who has helped you to drown. Of course -…

My point is that education is not a guaranteed get out of poverty free card because it still requires you never needing a break, never having any health issues, never having to stop to support family or loved ones, etc. You also have less support for loans you took out, less of a network, etc. so you have way less grace when it comes to career decisions.

'Leaving your loved ones to drown' wasn't about not going to school. It's about the economic feasibility of dragging oneself into the middle class/PMC and how often the most economically 'responsible' actions mean watching your loved ones suffer. For example, my financial situation is terrible in part because I'm responsible for my mentally ill sister, who can't work. Or I have a friend whose mother has Parkinson's right after her father had early onset Alzheimer's. THAT'S what I meant by 'leaving your loved ones to drown': Having to make the choice between being economically stable/ensuring your future and helping your loved ones. Which is a pretty common poverty problem.

I was flippant, not illogical, and I don't have an MS. Different Master's degree.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#223

Post by Mezzie »

opportune wrote: post #205
Mezzie wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're on SSI, you're not allowed more than 2k in savings and assets. Other assistance programs also have asset limits. And a splurge for the impoverished isn't '$50 here and there'. My last 'splurge' was 12 dollars for a pair of fleece lined tights so I don't freeze on my way in to work (I walk to work). Or 3-4 bucks at McD's once every two weeks or so.

There’s a difference between being part of the working poor and on SSI. I don’t think there should be benefits cliffs of course, and that’s a different problem than what I was envisioning of eg someone who makes $15-30k/yr working a low wage job or jobs. The $50 figure was what I was replying to. I don’t see how inexpensive clothes or $4 at McD’s is a splurge.

> I don’t see how inexpensive clothes or $4 at McD’s is a splurge.

I'm supporting 2 people on 15/hr. Those are splurges. The 'splurge' is not being cold for 15 minutes on my way to work or having a night where I can choose what to eat for dinner.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#224

Post by dionidium »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #217
dionidium wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nihilism. We can acknowledge that some people have better luck than others without entirely rejecting the notion that there are good and bad choices.

well, it seems more to me that you do not acknowledge that there are things outside one's control, that good choices can only surmount so much.

This reminds me a bit of the debate about the blank slate, which presupposes that there’s one side who thinks human development is all nurture and another side that thinks it’s all nature. But actually only one of those sides exists. That is to say, there are people who think it is entirely nurture and who reject genetic explanations for behavior whenever they’re proposed, but there are no people who think it’s entirely genetics and who believe environment is never a factor.

That second group simply doesn’t exist. Every single person who believes genetics are a significant factor in life outcomes also believes that environment matters.

There is only one side that takes a hard line.

So it is here. There isn’t a side that thinks everything is environmental and a second side that thinks you can overcome anything with choices and hard work. The side that thinks choices and hard work matter also acknowledges that environment is very often a factor and that there may be situations that are insurmountable. It’s the other side that takes a hard line, that never acknowledges the role of choices, that always cowers from telling people that there are things they might do to improve their situation.

Of course life outcomes are a mix of nature and nurture. And of course (even though choices matter) there exist people who make all the right choices who nevertheless are held back by external factors. But believing what I just said entails admitting that choices do matter!

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#225

Post by hinkley »

automatic6131 wrote: post #76

A small rant about being poor* and food. Healthy, tasty food is cheap. It really, truly is. If you have a smartphone, you can learn how to make cheap, tasty and filling food. And you can afford it. Here's what you can't afford: the time, the equipment, the space. Can't buy frozen meats because the freezer is broken. Or it's small. Or it's already full of your flatmates shite that they've had in there for 15 months an…

I don’t think my family would have made it through the 80’s without a chest freezer. I own a smaller one now that has occasionally been awkward to site when I was an apartment dweller but it’s still worth it.

When bread was on sale, often 3 for 2 sales, we’d buy six loaves and stick them in the freezer. Meat was almost always whatever was on sale.

They are not expensive, but they take planning or at least putting off some other big ticket item u til they pay for themselves. What the poor also can’t do is afford to experiment on things that may or may not pay off. That money could have been spent on something else. Including a little bit of fun. VCs aiming for a one in ten success rate sound like madmen. To this day I still scratch my head at that.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#226

Post by Karrot_Kream »

blackgirldev wrote: post #208
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah when I left where I grew up and finally had the space to synthesize my experiences in poverty, I began to call the attitude I saw when growing up "learned helplessness." When everything that can go wrong does, you learn to stop striving, as high expectations just lead to failure and shame (like the article's volcano anecdote.) I was lucky. I was able to leverage the US education system to rise far above where I…

Yes that's the term "learned helplessness". I am curious: what made you able to leverage the US education system? Was there a relative that influenced you to study? A teacher? Were you a part of a community program? What do you think got you out of the cycle?

I had just the right personality traits that made me a good fit for the education system. I loved to read, was fine at sitting still for a long time, loved learning without structure, and was not constantly comparing myself against friends. My sister was not so lucky and is having a hard time trying to enter the professional world.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#227

Post by yourapostasy »

didericis wrote: post #113
Mezzie wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main barrier seems to be a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there are other options. Interesting because the main barriers I see are how the system creates perverse incentives for poor people re: getting to be not poor. For example, people on SSI aren't allowed to save. If my sister makes more than ~1k/mo or I save too much (as she's my dependent)…

Centralized finance and inflationary consumerist policies seem to be a major underlying contributor in all of this. Credit is most available and most advantageous to those higher up that get new money first, and creates a moving target that makes long term stability artificially difficult for those with no capital. Material poverty was much more prevalent in the past than now, but the kind of housing instability and…

> Credit is most available and most advantageous to those higher up that get new money first, and creates a moving target that makes long term stability artificially difficult for those with no capital.

See Cantillon Effect [1].

> I wish it was easier to know what a good solution was to lowering the cost of living without hampering innovation.

I advocate opening real estate to true free market pressures over a couple decades. It now strands egregious amounts of capital in developed economies, is the most heavily-subsidized market in developed nations, is the lowest hanging fruit of middle class household budgets that can benefit the most from a deflationary adjustment transition to the asset class, and offers near-zero national competitive advantage in a future where cognitive leverage is the key to dominant power that will extend beyond the Earth's biosphere.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Cantillon#Monetary_the...

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