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‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

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201–210 of 227 posts

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#201
The experience I had while growing up and still today is very similar. I moved from India to Europe, my father was sole provider of the house. He earned just par what you would call minimum wage as there was no such concept in India, still not today. By no means you could term us under poverty but I never felt my situation better than that, in-fact I remember many times I wished we were poor so I will at least have close friends who will stand for me or understand how I felt. The school was government subsidised but we had lot of middle class or higher middle class kids. I cycled 6km in morning and after school, initially it felt more fun but eventually I realised with 2nd hand bicycle I was saving school bus money. I remember the day when I was 11 years old and 1st time went for 3 days school trip, my father gave me ₹100 ($1.20). It was not that small amount 2-3 kids also had around same but many of other brought ₹500 in fact there was a kid with ₹2000 and teachers were worried if he will lose it or someone might steal it. I only spent half of it cause I was saving for Nintendo Super Game Boy for both me and my 5 years younger brother. I got the Nintendo! but I was 15 then and wanted a PC. All my childhood was eventual despair of longing for anything. For my brother it was a bit better but he never got anything new or shiny, always whatever I had used. We never went out for food except for my, my brother’s and mother’s birthday, father never wanted to go out on his birthday citing he loves few select meals that mother makes which always infuriated me but after 12 or 14 I realised why he never wanted. Being older I got exposed to our situation very early and there was always this impatience and frustration I felt building in me, I use to express it on mother and brother but I never truly learned why it was there until I got my first job. I was grateful for my parents that I was able to graduate and can now live better financially, but my childhood shame never left me. Till today I secretly go to McDonalds, KFC without telling my wife or kids just to have that feeling that I can eat at those places whenever I want, not because these are fine dining or my wife will be upset but for me those are golf course sessions. Whenever I want to buy any electronics I first look for what is most expensive then reviews and finally decide what I should buy so I won’t look tech junky.

Limited financial resources in my childhood limits me now in my life, work. So many time I truly can’t connect to lunch or coffee conversations between colleagues because those feels like two persons in car fighting or waiving to each other while I look through bus window on the roadside.

I was financial limited then and because of that I’m cognitively restrained now.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see the reasoning but I still don’t see it as sensible per se. Having a buffer of just $1-3k at the end of the year instead of blowing $50 here and there could make a huge difference as far as anxiety and ability to weather unforeseen issues. Yes, unforeseen things will still arise but you’d rather have the $1k you need to deal with it than not. I’m more partial to the argument that splurges allow people to tem…

I was poor earlier in life. Spending the $50 does nothing to make someone not feel poor but it does, in some way, medicate the feeling. It's the same reason some wealthier people I've met have bought new iPhones and computers every time the next generation rolls around. There isn't a need for it beyond an emotional benefit. But those are important because life is a balancing act. When you're poor you know you're an i…

"It's the same reason some wealthier people I've met have bought new iPhones and computers every time the next generation rolls around."

If wealthy people would only spend their money wisely there wouldn't be a need for things like inheritance tax breaks and family trusts to prop up their wealth. :D

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#203

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

I’m not convinced that healthcare is a Machiavellian planned top-down threat. The origin was in employers competing for labor during a time of wage controls. The continuation is driven more by people who have good health coverage not wanting to lose that and the fear that their doctors visits will feel like DMV visits. That’s a powerful force.

Thing is - Our doctors visits already feel like DMV visits?

I've lived all over VA - Richmond, Fairfax, Alexandria. All felt like DMV. In Michigan now. Feels like DMV.

Thing is, too - by all accounts I can tell - people are largely satisfied with their State Healthcare, in those places that have it (Whichever form it takes). Sure people have critiques. But some people saying something can be an issue is not the same thing as the entire system being broken + in the other system everyone gets good instead of just a few + no reason to try + instead keep this system with the same problems but also costs more.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced that healthcare is a Machiavellian planned top-down threat. The origin was in employers competing for labor during a time of wage controls. The continuation is driven more by people who have good health coverage not wanting to lose that and the fear that their doctors visits will feel like DMV visits. That’s a powerful force.

Thing is - Our doctors visits already feel like DMV visits? I've lived all over VA - Richmond, Fairfax, Alexandria. All felt like DMV. In Michigan now. Feels like DMV. Thing is, too - by all accounts I can tell - people are largely satisfied with their State Healthcare, in those places that have it (Whichever form it takes). Sure people have critiques. But some people saying something can be an issue is not the same…

I would rather have a colonoscopy than go to the DMV here. My last colonoscopy was easily scheduled, had excellent communication, showed concern for my experience, and took a little under 2 hours on the day of. Few of my DMV encounters go that pleasantly.

My regular doctor’s office schedules appointments easily online, keeps to the schedule, communicates well and answers questions online within 24 hours, will follow simple instructions to help me get a script or something else basic, and clearly explains my situation and makes relevant recommendations based on test results. The DMV is (and most government services I’ve had to interact with are) pretty much whatever the relevant opposite of that list is.

We switched doctors in part because the previous didn’t have their shit together in terms of these basic interactions. The new one (4+ years now) is great.

Merely being able to fire your doctor and find another is reason enough for me to want to keep a significant private aspect.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#205
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see the reasoning but I still don’t see it as sensible per se. Having a buffer of just $1-3k at the end of the year instead of blowing $50 here and there could make a huge difference as far as anxiety and ability to weather unforeseen issues. Yes, unforeseen things will still arise but you’d rather have the $1k you need to deal with it than not. I’m more partial to the argument that splurges allow people to tem…

If you're on SSI, you're not allowed more than 2k in savings and assets. Other assistance programs also have asset limits. And a splurge for the impoverished isn't '$50 here and there'. My last 'splurge' was 12 dollars for a pair of fleece lined tights so I don't freeze on my way in to work (I walk to work). Or 3-4 bucks at McD's once every two weeks or so.

There’s a difference between being part of the working poor and on SSI. I don’t think there should be benefits cliffs of course, and that’s a different problem than what I was envisioning of eg someone who makes $15-30k/yr working a low wage job or jobs.

The $50 figure was what I was replying to. I don’t see how inexpensive clothes or $4 at McD’s is a splurge.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#206
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I correct in understanding that you concluded that poverty is primarily a mindset issue?

No, they correctly identify it as learned helplessness which is a real behaviour common to many animals including humans. If you experience repeated misery, set backs, abuse, discrimination, and even just bad luck it conditions you to believe that no matter what you do you will always fall victim to the worst outcome so you just give up and stay where you are and endure it the best you can. That is not saying that th…

Agreed. That's the conclusion I drew from my experience. It was painful to watch.

It is how I learned how people rationalize their world and the things they experience into some kind of logical end they deserve.

I would never say mindset is what makes a person poor.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#207
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See “The Sam Vimes “Boots” Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness”: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboar…

This annoys me every time I see it. Good boots don't cost 1.5 months of a worker's salary. They cost a day's or less. And if you buy used stuff you can live cheaper than ever. In that respect it's a golden age for the poor. The problems for the poor in modern America are health care, education, and rent.

> Good boots don't cost 1.5 months of a worker's salary.

Now. But in the past it was plausible. See this list of assorted wages and prices for items in the mid-19th century in the US [1].

Boots were around $25. There were many jobs that paid low enough that $25 would be in the neighborhood of 1.5 months worth of pay.

[1] http://anotherandrosphereblog.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-much-...

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#208

As someone who grew up solidly middle class and went to a near Ivy private university and dropped out, I thought I was under educated about "life" and felt the need to enlist in the military. There, I found out that people who grow up poor looked at me like I was a total idiot. There were daily reminders that I grew up privileged. That my brief stint as an enlisted scrub were not enough to understand what it meant wh…

Yeah when I left where I grew up and finally had the space to synthesize my experiences in poverty, I began to call the attitude I saw when growing up "learned helplessness." When everything that can go wrong does, you learn to stop striving, as high expectations just lead to failure and shame (like the article's volcano anecdote.) I was lucky. I was able to leverage the US education system to rise far above where I…

Yes that's the term "learned helplessness".

I am curious: what made you able to leverage the US education system? Was there a relative that influenced you to study? A teacher? Were you a part of a community program? What do you think got you out of the cycle?

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#209
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See “The Sam Vimes “Boots” Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness”: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboar…

This annoys me every time I see it. Good boots don't cost 1.5 months of a worker's salary. They cost a day's or less. And if you buy used stuff you can live cheaper than ever. In that respect it's a golden age for the poor. The problems for the poor in modern America are health care, education, and rent.

The analogy extends pretty well in America if you just make it about cars.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#210
post #195
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got dependents? Does cooking require any utilities? Let's say you can only afford one. You going to sleep by the oven or do homework by candlelight? How many illnesses are you away from homelessness?

That stuff would be easy if I had food stamps on top of my income.

Try it
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