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‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

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151–160 of 227 posts

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a historical thing? In the US you get a SNAP card and can buy fresh produce at the store. I shop at a low-income focused grocery store (because it’s the same stuff but cheaper) and most people are using SNAP benefits and carts are always a mix of healthy stuff to unhealthy frozen junk.

You're going to get pushback on this commonsense understanding of the world, but I've been on food stamps and of course you're right. "It's more complicated than that." No it isn't. Poor people shop at the same stores as everybody else. The food is all there. "They don't know the difference between healthy and unhealthy meals." How stupid do you think poor people are? They know how to prepare a healthy meal. The noti…

"(In fact, in the United States upper-income earners work more hours than those at the bottom [0].)"

I don't think this includes commute times or waiting in line for a security check. But maybe it does since these are all self-reported figures.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a historical thing? In the US you get a SNAP card and can buy fresh produce at the store. I shop at a low-income focused grocery store (because it’s the same stuff but cheaper) and most people are using SNAP benefits and carts are always a mix of healthy stuff to unhealthy frozen junk.

You're going to get pushback on this commonsense understanding of the world, but I've been on food stamps and of course you're right. "It's more complicated than that." No it isn't. Poor people shop at the same stores as everybody else. The food is all there. "They don't know the difference between healthy and unhealthy meals." How stupid do you think poor people are? They know how to prepare a healthy meal. The noti…

Anything can be overcome, humans can do anything (get out of poverty, convert to healthy living, run marathons, stop smoking....) yet the majority (of a huge sample size of humans) is stuck in their way, held down by environmental conditions and, if you will, by limits in the human condition or whatever. If it could be fixed by telling people to "try harder" they would have by now, no?

The answer is to alleviate the environmental conditions. You have mentioned in another post that you have benefitted from food stamps for a while (did I understand that right?), allowing you to eat healthy; other people need that and maybe a little additional help with food, housing and clothing (all of it basic human rights anyway and relatively cheap to provide for in a modern society) to reduce the pressure and higher order effects of not having that safety net.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#153
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See “The Sam Vimes “Boots” Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness”: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboar…

It's easier to make economic theories that fit science fiction rather than real life. The Vimes boots problem has already been solved by financing. Services like Affirm would allow Sam Vimes to pay the $50 boots in 4 biweekly installments of $12.50. If the theory were correct, then buy-now-pay-later programs would help alleviate poverty, but what we see instead is that it worsens it by enabling consumerist purchases.

Affirm is pretty new, doesn't give zero interest to everyone or support all purchases.

Credit cards and payday loans support all purchases and actually exacerbate this issue by extracting money from people. It makes sense after all, they are a service that has to make money and if rich people don't need their service, where is the money going to come from?

Affirm could work if it was not trying to make a profit (maybe off VC funds), but it is difficult for me to understand how it will solve this issue and be profitable.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#154
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of reward for planning (by virtue of not having the resources since they're always insufficient and tied up in more immediate concerns) similarly promotes a very detached and immediate lifestyle. I have $50. $50 can mean I have fun tonight. $50 does nothing for me next week except maybe let me buy some food, which I can probably scrape together another way. So I'm going to have some fun tonight. The notion t…

I can see the reasoning but I still don’t see it as sensible per se. Having a buffer of just $1-3k at the end of the year instead of blowing $50 here and there could make a huge difference as far as anxiety and ability to weather unforeseen issues. Yes, unforeseen things will still arise but you’d rather have the $1k you need to deal with it than not. I’m more partial to the argument that splurges allow people to tem…

I was poor earlier in life. Spending the $50 does nothing to make someone not feel poor but it does, in some way, medicate the feeling. It's the same reason some wealthier people I've met have bought new iPhones and computers every time the next generation rolls around. There isn't a need for it beyond an emotional benefit. But those are important because life is a balancing act. When you're poor you know you're an inch away from being homeless and it weighs heavily. A night of having fun might be temporary but it's memorable and helps tip the scale towards sanity, even if more economically prudent decisions would help in the long term.

Recognizing everyone is different, the question is, how much hardship can you endure before you just give up?

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#155

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

Closely related: people who say money can't buy happiness. Yeah fuck you. No one who was ever poor says that.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#156

People who have not grown up poor can't really understand it. It's not only about the money. It's about the constant stress and fear whether or not you're going to make it. Just work hard in school to get out is actually pretty hard. Learning is like swimming through molasses because of the constant stress. It gives you a lifetime of trauma and damage.

I work in a big tech company making > 5 times the average salary. People think I'm really fortunate, rich, and that I got it easy.

What they don't see is how I spent half of my career working for a poverty level wage. Making a top 5% income now doesn't erase years of dread every morning going to work, stress of choosing which bill you will and won't pay this month, or constant fear of having an unexpected expense.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#157

Being poor is that everything on daily basis is draining time resource. And that everything is likely to be needed. For example, watching stupid TV shows for entertainment, because after work it's already painful, don't have energy to study anything. Some of developers don't code on weekend and free time .. because they need to be chilled!

Sometimes I wonder if decision to work such high-skill draining jobs is caused by an upbringing in poverty. Like they are bending on peer pressure to get the biggest wages to fit in with their spending habits because investment in yourself is not valued. It's as if poor people only see a community based on money. It's the thinking that still haunts them.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#158
Starting out from a lower point is always a struggle and most attempts to get out of it leaves you with internal scars (like Frodo had in LOTR). And the internal scars always hurt and I don't know how long they continue to hurt.

Sometimes I wonder if it is even worth to do anything about it on an individual level. As an atheist I can only say, may the unknown save us from the world of known.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#159

People who have not grown up poor can't really understand it. It's not only about the money. It's about the constant stress and fear whether or not you're going to make it. Just work hard in school to get out is actually pretty hard. Learning is like swimming through molasses because of the constant stress. It gives you a lifetime of trauma and damage.

It’s also a trauma that gets handed down. My parents, when they had me, were by absolutely no means poor - in fact, they were relatively wealthy - but my mother, and her parents before her, grew up in absolutely grinding poverty, and she has been fundamentally shaped by her experiences to the extent that I inherited much of her mindset. My father came from a family that had been wealthy in the colonies, and suddenly found themselves penniless in Portsmouth. The shame, the fear, the what will people think, the make do and mend, the “oh that’s not for me, that’s for real people” attitude. They’d send me to boarding school with no pocket money, which was utterly quixotic to me as a kid - they could afford thousands a term on my schooling, but not £10 a term for me to not be a social outcast? I had to beg, borrow, or steal to pay for field trips, books, and uniform. It screwed them both up. It screwed me up, as while they’d gotten free of the financial poverty trap, they were still there in their minds. I worked out of school like I had the fires of hell on my heels, and kept grinding until, bar the apocalypse, I do not need to worry about money. I still make do and mend. I still feel like an imposter practically everywhere. I still see brown letters and feel the sweat prick down my spine.

It took me a long time to understand where it came from in myself - until I spent time with folks who themselves grew up in actual poverty, and had similar experiences to mine.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#160
As someone who grew up solidly middle class and went to a near Ivy private university and dropped out, I thought I was under educated about "life" and felt the need to enlist in the military.

There, I found out that people who grow up poor looked at me like I was a total idiot. There were daily reminders that I grew up privileged. That my brief stint as an enlisted scrub were not enough to understand what it meant when the military was your only option.

That said, I benefited greatly by not having an actual war during my tenure, having access to distance learning education, and finishing a degree there. I learned that I could get a super low rate VA mortgage as well. These things made a lot of difference and saved me at least a decade of working shit jobs to catch up with my peers after getting out of the military.

In contrast, my fellow enlisted from poverty never aspired to anything more than Chief (US Navy) (edit - nothing wrong with Chief Petty Officer - enlisted vs officer was a real class thing as I recall and it stays with me, sorry). That is, if they made it past the DUIs, economic/financial shame of buying expensive cars and crashing them, bad relationships with rampant abuse, etc.

As someone who could "see hope" because I wasn't mired in poverty's terrible view, I could actually take advantage of what military life offered.

I cannot adequately describe what it is like to be surrounded by people from poverty: to live with them, experience their pain vicariously, and not understand WHY they couldn't do what I was able to do.

The mindset is a real handicap. Changing your mindset is the core of moving from one place in life to another. I will never forget that lesson. Come to think of it, I know wealthy people stuck in detrimental mindsets. But that is another discussion.

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