Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

longreads.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 227 posts

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#171

Post by CobaltFire »

treis wrote: post #166
CobaltFire wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See “The Sam Vimes “Boots” Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness”: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboar…

This annoys me every time I see it. Good boots don't cost 1.5 months of a worker's salary. They cost a day's or less. And if you buy used stuff you can live cheaper than ever. In that respect it's a golden age for the poor. The problems for the poor in modern America are health care, education, and rent.

I think you may miss the point.

Literature doesn’t have to write literally about something for the point to be made. The boots are a stand in for whatever the issue at hand IS (rent vice buying a house would be apt).

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#172

Post by robocat »

Mezzie wrote: post #77
retrac wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of reward for planning (by virtue of not having the resources since they're always insufficient and tied up in more immediate concerns) similarly promotes a very detached and immediate lifestyle. I have $50. $50 can mean I have fun tonight. $50 does nothing for me next week except maybe let me buy some food, which I can probably scrape together another way. So I'm going to have some fun tonight. The notion t…

Yes. Also the advice to scrimp assumes there is a way that the person will ever NOT be poor/in poverty, and that isn't true for some/most poor people. I'm a disabled American who is the breadwinner for myself and another disabled person. Saving would punish us: My sister would lose her health care and I would lose the financial assistance I get for my MS meds. Even if I make more money, it's all going to medical cost…

Is there nobody you can trust to look after some savings? A burden on them, and a risk for you, but one way to avoid the risk of cash/bitcoin without being in a government watched account.

It is a horrific crime that the incentives are so perverse. I live in New Zealand and we have the same thing to some extent, but mostly not nearly as atrocious as the US systemic abuse.

Here’s hoping that modern medicine finally finds a solution to fix MS for you - disability is often invisible - an analogue to the author’s pervasive problems with poverty. All the best.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#173

Post by throwaway22032 »

dionidium wrote: post #55
hilom wrote: post #3

That was a long read, but very much worth reading. This part really stuck out to me: > A few years ago, a friend of mine, in a well-meaning attempt to understand the impoverished diets of poor people, ate a Food Stamp diet for a week. On the last day of the diet, he talked about what he had learned and spoke philosophically about his renewed appreciation of healthy food as he prepared to end his restricted diet with…

What sticks out to me is that it sticks out to you (and the author and so many others besides). I have actually been on food stamps . I never ate so well. Before I had food stamps I was just a typical working poor person. I had never spent as much on groceries as I was able to on food stamps. Food stamps are accepted at regular grocery stores -- the same ones you shop at. You can get anything you want, more or less.…

I'm pretty much here with you as a UK prole, for what it's worth.

I constantly feel like middle class individuals just don't "get" what it's like to be poor. It's really common for there to be this sort of "woe is them" mindset, as if they're talking about farm animals or something that fundamentally has less intelligence/autonomy.

The vast majority of my schoolfriends who worked hard, focused on the correct things, and budgeted well, did well. The ones that went to prison or had children at age 18 didn't. None of us are billionaires, but neither are we all some sort of sub-human, toothless, brainless mass.

One of the amusing things about having money now, is that I have to "play along" to some extent. I can't just tell someone that they're an idiot for trying to find a place in London when they're a single person without any real income to speak of, even though 99% of people back in my hometown not only think that's not unreasonable, but that it's completely self-evident.

Some people face real barriers. Try being born into a country in which a Western visa costs a month or more of your wages. Hell, try just being on an H1-B. The way we talk about "poverty" in the West makes an absolute mockery of that.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#174

Post by clcaev »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #137
Mezzie wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main barrier seems to be a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there are other options. Interesting because the main barriers I see are how the system creates perverse incentives for poor people re: getting to be not poor. For example, people on SSI aren't allowed to save. If my sister makes more than ~1k/mo or I save too much (as she's my dependent)…

Would buying gold or silver coins or collectibles count as savings? If not there are other items that can be purchased new or used that have a high resale value and thus could be used as a store of savings without actually being cash, though the only affordable one on this list, for a poor person, would be the Ann Taylor clothes: https://blog.cheapism.com/best-resale-value-products-14004/#... Obviously not a solution…

Gold and silver coins are something that can be easily stolen. Those who are not banked are targets, for the cash hidden in their mattress.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#175

Post by fknorangesite »

josephcsible wrote: post #126
notRobot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes. "If only these people would abstain from the joys of eating fucking McDonald's , they'd no longer be poor."

The point is that even the cheapest restaurants are more expensive than preparing food yourself.

This is some tired avocado-toast-level commentary.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#176

Post by Mezzie »

robocat wrote: post #172
Mezzie wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Also the advice to scrimp assumes there is a way that the person will ever NOT be poor/in poverty, and that isn't true for some/most poor people. I'm a disabled American who is the breadwinner for myself and another disabled person. Saving would punish us: My sister would lose her health care and I would lose the financial assistance I get for my MS meds. Even if I make more money, it's all going to medical cost…

Is there nobody you can trust to look after some savings? A burden on them, and a risk for you, but one way to avoid the risk of cash/bitcoin without being in a government watched account. It is a horrific crime that the incentives are so perverse. I live in New Zealand and we have the same thing to some extent, but mostly not nearly as atrocious as the US systemic abuse. Here’s hoping that modern medicine finally fi…

Nope. The reason I'm my sister's caretaker is because our parents won't/can't do it. My dad is a bootstraps guy who refuses to help and my mom isn't financially responsible. I'm the most responsible/trustworthy person in the social network, and the only one who understands the systems.

And yeah, I'm pulling for medicine! Pretty hopeful about it, though with my luck they'll figure it out when I'm 65-75 and I'll be able-bodied but too old to change my financial fortunes lol

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#177

Post by humbleguy »

akie wrote: post #170
blackgirldev wrote: post #160

As someone who grew up solidly middle class and went to a near Ivy private university and dropped out, I thought I was under educated about "life" and felt the need to enlist in the military. There, I found out that people who grow up poor looked at me like I was a total idiot. There were daily reminders that I grew up privileged. That my brief stint as an enlisted scrub were not enough to understand what it meant wh…

Am I correct in understanding that you concluded that poverty is primarily a mindset issue?

No

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#178

Post by michaelbuckbee »

treis wrote: post #166
CobaltFire wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See “The Sam Vimes “Boots” Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness”: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboar…

This annoys me every time I see it. Good boots don't cost 1.5 months of a worker's salary. They cost a day's or less. And if you buy used stuff you can live cheaper than ever. In that respect it's a golden age for the poor. The problems for the poor in modern America are health care, education, and rent.

It's a metaphor for the greater issues of being poor, which, as you quite accurately stated, are health care, education, and rent.

Health care: you can afford your insulin or you blood sugar goes out of whack and you end up in the ER.

Education: you can't afford the time to learn a new skill (or even attend school) so you can't move up out of your low-paying job.

Rent: you're paying high rent instead of owning.

The issues extend from these all the way down to the boots level.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#179

Post by [deleted] »

zimpenfish wrote: post #169
civopsec wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me think of the “delayed gratification” experiments. Someone who is of means probably has an easier time delaying gratification because they have the means to figuratively “break the fast”. They also know that they have the resources to get somewhere in life. But what if you don’t? What if that “instant gratification” is all that you can expect to get for a good while?

> Makes me think of the “delayed gratification” experiments. Since debunked[1], mind you - "Celeste Kidd published The Marshmallow Study Revisited in which she disproved the conclusions made in the original Marshmallow experiment" [1] https://medium.com/21st-century-tidbits/delayed-gratificatio...

[deleted]
Post reply on HN