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‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

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Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#71

Post by retrac »

pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

The lack of reward for planning (by virtue of not having the resources since they're always insufficient and tied up in more immediate concerns) similarly promotes a very detached and immediate lifestyle. I have $50. $50 can mean I have fun tonight. $50 does nothing for me next week except maybe let me buy some food, which I can probably scrape together another way. So I'm going to have some fun tonight. The notion that they should save this and set it aside is unrealistic (it's going to go to some surprise expense that always exceed total income). The norm is always having insufficient resources to meet needs under constant anxiety. So check out from time to time when you have the means to briefly alleviate this by splurging and pretending for 6 hours that you're not in this circumstance. From that perspective, the alternative is being just as poor and not having the brief splurge. Living for the day is quite a sensible life philosophy in such circumstances, really.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#72

Post by orev »

troupe wrote: post #42
pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

It is a similar situation with buying a car for $500 that will require lots of repairs vs. a more expensive car that will give you a lower cost per mile. While this does add some drag, in most of the situations I've actually seen, it isn't the main barrier to getting out of poverty. The main barrier seems to be a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there a…

> a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there are other options. For example, things like getting a dog, signing up for cable TV, getting an unnecessarily expensive new phone, spending money on going out to eat, etc.

While there are definitely elements of spending badly, this idea that they spend money on the “wrong” things gets dangerously close to dehumanizing the impoverished. Those people are still people, and they like to have the joys and feel included in society like everyone else. There’s a huge mental health aspect to that which can mean the difference between being motivated to change your situation vs just accepting it.

Having cable TV gives you access to unlimited entertainment. A smartphone gives you access to all known human knowledge, and is essentially required now to access benefits, banking, etc. Dogs are widely recognized as being one of the most beneficial things to help with general mood and mental health.

The decisions people are making are rational, their just not aimed at the goal you think they should be aiming for (getting out of poverty).

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#73

Post by GZJOHN »

bluedino wrote: post #54
troupe wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a similar situation with buying a car for $500 that will require lots of repairs vs. a more expensive car that will give you a lower cost per mile. While this does add some drag, in most of the situations I've actually seen, it isn't the main barrier to getting out of poverty. The main barrier seems to be a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there a…

> For example, things like getting a dog, signing up for cable TV, getting an unnecessarily expensive new phone, spending money on going out to eat, etc. In a way, people without a lot of money need to "learn how to be poor" When you're low on money, you eat sandwiches and ramen and beans and potatoes. You don't eat McDonald's or get Starbucks.

Thank you for so succinctly summing up the sort of utterly out of touch combined with willful ignorance attitude I've come to associate with Hacker News in general.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#74

Post by agumonkey »

pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

Totally. And sadly it's a universal principle. Under a certain threshold everything becomes exponentially harder. Same goes the other way, having just enough capital gives you life altering contexts, you have time, multiple attempts, less risk/higher comfort, advice, network..

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#75

Post by Vt71fcAqt7 »

fbdab103 wrote: post #38
monero-xmr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a historical thing? In the US you get a SNAP card and can buy fresh produce at the store. I shop at a low-income focused grocery store (because it’s the same stuff but cheaper) and most people are using SNAP benefits and carts are always a mix of healthy stuff to unhealthy frozen junk.

When you are poor, you have to be frugal in all things. Even "free money" needs to be spent judiciously. Junk foods will extend your dollar further and are typically faster to prepare than alternatives.

>Junk foods will extend your dollar further

That's just not true. People who live in actually impovrished countries don't eat junk food; they eat rice and eggs. The US has a %40 obesity rate. That doesn't come from "extending your dollar." Poorer people have an even higher obesity rate on average in the US. That doesn't suddenly mean that "junk food will extend your dollar further."

What we really need is to limit food stamps (or SNAP, EBT, whatever name) to healthier options. Junk food and fast food may be easier but becoming obease is a terrable financial decision which will increase medical cost, may cause diabetes, drain evergy ect. all which have a disproportionate effect on poorer people. I don't blame people for taking the faster and tastier option but the government should not allow food stamps to buy soda, doughnuts ect. in place of cheap eggs, rice and beans.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#76

Post by automatic6131 »

A small rant about being poor* and food.

Healthy, tasty food is cheap. It really, truly is. If you have a smartphone, you can learn how to make cheap, tasty and filling food. And you can afford it.

Here's what you can't afford: the time, the equipment, the space. Can't buy frozen meats because the freezer is broken. Or it's small. Or it's already full of your flatmates shite that they've had in there for 15 months and never going to eat. Same with the fridge, you can't shop for a week (but you wouldn't anyway because you don't have a car) because it's already full of your f**ing flatmates rotting, half eaten yogurts, rancid meats and leftovers. So you buy what you have to eat for a day, today.

Also you're tired because your commute was 80 minutes on two buses, each way. And your feet hurt anyway because you stand or walk for 7 hours every day. And your back hurts.

But even if you weren't tired and in pain, you don't have a chopping board, or a knife that isn't blunt as a spoon, or pan that isn't rusty, or a large cast iron cooking pot. You have whatever random collection of burnt, greasy, mouse dropping covered (Yay London!) weird iron pots were in the cupboard when you moved in. And why buy anything nice? Your flatmates will use it, not wash it, scrape off sauces with metal cutlery on a non stick pan (really!) and generally mistreat anything there. And you have exactly one working hot plate left and even that's got dodgy heat.

Rant over.

The Capex (equipment, use of a large, working kitchen) for cooking healthy is expensive. The time Opex for cooking healthy is expensive. The human willpower for cooking healthy is expensive. The ingredients, however, are not. Neither, actually, are the skills and knowledge of how to do it.

* minimum wage UK in London, no ability to get credit.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#77

Post by Mezzie »

retrac wrote: post #71
pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

The lack of reward for planning (by virtue of not having the resources since they're always insufficient and tied up in more immediate concerns) similarly promotes a very detached and immediate lifestyle. I have $50. $50 can mean I have fun tonight. $50 does nothing for me next week except maybe let me buy some food, which I can probably scrape together another way. So I'm going to have some fun tonight. The notion t…

Yes. Also the advice to scrimp assumes there is a way that the person will ever NOT be poor/in poverty, and that isn't true for some/most poor people.

I'm a disabled American who is the breadwinner for myself and another disabled person. Saving would punish us: My sister would lose her health care and I would lose the financial assistance I get for my MS meds. Even if I make more money, it's all going to medical costs, so what's the point?

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#78

Post by Mezzie »

unethical_ban wrote: post #64
notRobot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes. "If only these people would abstain from the joys of eating fucking McDonald's , they'd no longer be poor."

A double quarter pounder meal is $11 with tax in Texas. I'm not poor but I'm realizing just how insane it is to eat out regularly now.

The poor aren't getting the meals.

When I was a grad student, my McD's trips were 'hey I found a toonie (Canada), I can treat myself to a McDouble'.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#79

Post by Mezzie »

troupe wrote: post #42
pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

It is a similar situation with buying a car for $500 that will require lots of repairs vs. a more expensive car that will give you a lower cost per mile. While this does add some drag, in most of the situations I've actually seen, it isn't the main barrier to getting out of poverty. The main barrier seems to be a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there a…

> The main barrier seems to be a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there are other options.

Interesting because the main barriers I see are how the system creates perverse incentives for poor people re: getting to be not poor. For example, people on SSI aren't allowed to save. If my sister makes more than ~1k/mo or I save too much (as she's my dependent) she loses her healthcare which is what keeps her from going full Kanye. If I make/save much, I stop getting assistance for my MS meds. Basically, working to get out of poverty wouldn't actually get us out of poverty, we'd just end up giving our money to healthcare companies instead of buying ourselves little luxuries. Another example is that often assistance programs won't help you unless you empty your savings. So if you have 200 dollars and can't make rent, they'll take it from you before they help. So it's more 'rational' to spend that 200 on something else.

Disability, chronic health conditions, and unexpected dependents (be it children, elderly parents, or (in my case) a sibling who manifested a severe mental illness in their 20s) are huge factors in poverty.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#80

Post by ryandrake »

delecti wrote: post #24
sokoloff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced that healthcare is a Machiavellian planned top-down threat. The origin was in employers competing for labor during a time of wage controls. The continuation is driven more by people who have good health coverage not wanting to lose that and the fear that their doctors visits will feel like DMV visits. That’s a powerful force.

I think "doctors visits feeling like DMV trips" is a hyperbole sold to us by people who are actually trying to keep people trapped in jobs. It's not entirely false, but it's definitely vastly overblown, as seen by current emergency rooms, where you don't need insurance to get emergency care, but do often need to wait several hours, and other countries' routine medical care, where it varies too much between countries…

I have relatively good health insurance from my (USA) employer and my doctor visit still feels like a trip to the DMV. Actually worse because I have to schedule them many weeks in advance. New Patient appointments in my area are currently backlogged 4 months out. When I finally get there, it’s clear I’m on a conveyer belt where I get a 5 minute chat with an actual doctor at the very end of the assembly line. The FUD that people spread about the horrors of socialized health care are already emerging in our free market health system, and I also have to pay through the nose for them.
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