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CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

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Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#141
The issue here is that power among people tends to concentrate rather than diffuse. CEOs are comped disproportionately because the top 1% have an exceptionally better network and power structure over others. Why? Because people bandwagon onto known entities.

There’s a similar phenomenon with authors, actors, and musicians. A-list actors command an order of magnitude more in compensation over B-list because they have concentrated a much stronger hold over an audience.

This isn’t only true of “celebrity” CEOs like Jobs, Musk, etc. CEOs can develop their own mini fiefdoms of celebrity within a niche industry. This network and power gives them access to opportunities that can be pivotal to the success of a company.

I think in order to equalize exec pay, you’d need to figure out how to stop the bandwagoning that consolidates exec power.

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#142
post #62

> This escalation of CEO compensation and of executive compensation more generally has fueled the growth of top 1% and top 0.1% incomes, leaving fewer of the gains of economic growth for ordinary workers and widening the gap between very high earners and the bottom 90%. I ignore every article that separates the top 1% from ordinary workers. In the UK, to be in the top 1% of earners you need to earn 120K GBP gross a y…

What occupation does an ordinary worker have in your books? I'm curious, since for example I have always held doctors in the higher end of middle class workers: not quite 'i own a yacht' rich, but still economically set for a more cushier lifestyle. Yet, according to NHS[1] doctors in the UK earn 120k at best , so I'm sorry but something doesn't add up. [1] https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-d…

NHS doctors are grossly underpaid, it's shocking.

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#143
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point should someone's creation be confiscated and given to employees?

Most of the things that a company produces are created by the employees.

Why don't the employees just go and produce it on their own? That way they can capture 100% of the value they produce.

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#144
post #138
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>blaming the voters themselves for being so dissatisfied with the status quo that they would take a chance on someone like that. It is the fault of the voters. Especially after it was obvious Trump was just a grifter who couldn't care less about the common man, and they voted for him again because they were scared of the immigrants and black activists with whom they should have had class solidarity. And it will still…

Voters in the US have very little actual influence when it comes to national politics. Yes, they have one final vote, but their vote is highly distorted due to systemic issues, like e.g. first-past-the-post. There are 300 million people in the US. How come the voters only get to make a binary decision? Simple; because the two parties have designed everything so that the voter only gets to make that decision. So, I'd…

Then why should Trump voters be considered a "warning sign" of anything? Either Trump's election was a successful populist repudiation of the status quo - as they themselves will often claim - in which case voters clearly had power (albeit extremely limited by the system) or they don't and he was in essence elected by the system, despite for some reason not being the best candidate for the party.

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#145
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately the more centralized the power the less efficient the system is. Markets are great because they push decision making down to the fringes, closer to where the ground truth is. With highly centralized systems there is a bottleneck both in getting information to the decision makers, but also in overwhelming those decision makers with too much detail and losing fidelity. The flipside is that markets are only e…

> Ultimately the more centralized the power the less efficient the system is. Markets are great because they push decision making down to the fringes, closer to where the ground truth is. With highly centralized systems there is a bottleneck both in getting information to the decision makers, but also in overwhelming those decision makers with too much detail and losing fidelity. Wouldn't this point to CEOs not being…

Sometimes the best action for a company to take is the one that doesn't maximize short term profit. That's where a CEO can shine. Markets are like genetic algorithms, they are prone to getting hung up on local maxima.

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#146
This article is extremely incorrect in looking at inequality as the reason to try and address this. What the ceo is paid has nothing to do with what the average worker is paid and it is incorrect to look at this as problematic from that perspective. What is important is that both the worker and the ceo get paid what they would get in a competitive market and that competitive market is completely different because it is completely different work.

This kind of splitting indicates two potential things here and only one of them is concerning/needs addressing. First of all, the wages could be splitting because the labor market characteristics of the two jobs changed. This is completely reasonable given the increased foreign competition faced by the lower 3/4 or so of the labor force, as well as the increasing immigration pushing labor prices down for that labor cohort. The second thing that could be going on, and is concerning, is ceo board capture being abused to increase compensation beyond a competitive ceo wage. This is also believable because most of these big companies have no single large shareholder to push back on ridiculous wage proposals and the mechanics of how voting the shares works means management suggestion is very likely to be approved so the board is often at the whim of the CEO far more than they should be. Only this second cause needs some action to resolve (although I don't have a good recommendation on what that action would be).

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#147
It is largely because there is much greater salary transparency for the C suite. Everyone walks into the negotiation with a clear understanding of what fair market value is. This is not true for most positions. The worker is at a disadvantage.

I believe every job ad should have a minimum salary listed with other compensation and benefits.

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#148

Like most people I think that this is ludicrous, but could someone give a shot at playing devil's advocate and justifying this? Are competent CEOs so much harder to get, do they really produce a 1,460% more value compared to '78, etc.?

The growth in C suite pay since 1978 is largely attributed to salaries of executives at public and non profit companies becoming public.

However, yes, a fantastic CEO can potentially provide incredible value to a company. But it is incredibly hard to tell who will succeed and who will fail. It is a complex job. Some of it comes down to gut instincts and intangibles.

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Musk, Jobs, Bezos, Nadella have demonstrably added Trillions of Dollars of value to their firms. So, it make sense to award a %age of value they create Unlike CEO's of yore who contributed a tenth of the value to their companies?

It's Math 101. CEOs compensation is typically tied to Market Caps of firms, while employees have fixed/sticky wages. In the 'Yore' It took a great deal of time for any firm to add $1 Billion value to their Market Cap. So, naturally CEOs compensation grew slowly. In the modern era, companies can add a Trillion Market Cap in a year. So, naturally CEO's growth rate will rapidly grow. A lot of phenomenon in this world ca…

> It's Math 101. CEOs compensation is typically tied to Market Caps of firms, while employees have fixed/sticky wages.

It NOT Math 101. You're making some assertions that really don't stand up to even basic Econ 101 theory of markets. Why shouldn't other employee compensation be tied to market cap of firms (relative to the number of employees) and CEO compensation be fixed/sticky wages?

The forces driving CEO wages should be no different than other employee wages. They should be driven by the net value they can provide for a company. (Seriously, if you're going to tie anything to the market cap of a firm, it should be more CFO/comptroller type roles, not CEO... but you don't see the accounting team being compensated more just because the company has a bigger budget.) It's not unreasonable that companies might think that CEOs provide more value than their other employees (not always true, but not an unsurprising perspective), but you'd have a hell of a time convincing me that CEO performance has improved 1460% in the last 50 years.

Indeed, for the most part the job hasn't become harder, nor have the criteria become more stringent. You go back 50+ years ago, and you actually had a more difficult job because a company needed to manage far more employees to achieve the same economic value. If you can get so much more economic value out of fewer employees, it should follow that the individual employees should be valued, if anything, more relative to the CEO.

Sure, absent other factors, if a company is able to produce more economic value with fewer employees, that increases the value of the CEO... but it also increases the value of most, if not all, of the employees as well, and arguably it increases their value proportionately more than the CEO's.

> while employees have fixed/sticky wages.

You have to ask yourself why it works that way.

If employee productivity increases (as measured by ARPE), it stands to reason that employee compensation would grow proportionately (or at least near proportionately... you would expect some of the increased productivity to be siphoned off into profits) with it. Instead, the CW is that CEO pay should increase disproportionately to employee productivity increases, and employee wages should stay stagnant... because against all reason, we attribute any productivity growth to the CEOs.

> A lot of phenomenon in this world can be explained if you apply Mathematical concepts and natural laws instead of resorting to conspiracy, billionaire-hate and anything lately pushed by mainstream media.

You can rationalize anything with; mathematical models are abstract, so it's all about how you map those models to the real world.

I'm not trying to suggest there's any kind of conspiracy, nor am I engaging in "billionaire-hate" (and let's be real, billionaire CEOs are, for the most part, owner-CEOs, not your typical hired-gun CEO).

What I am trying to suggest is that there might be flaws in the systemic structures we have for compensation and attribution. No conspiracy necessary.

Re: CEO pay skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs paid 399 times as much vs. worker

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not their creation, it's their idea. The employees are the ones who literally created it. Even if you assume all CEOs are founders, the thought that they deserve more than two orders of magnitude more compensation for leasing their idea is wild.

> It's not their creation, it's their idea. Except in the cases where they literally create it? Every single idea and business started with a small group of people and often just a single person. Sometimes they create it, sometimes they pay someone else to create it. If they pay someone to create it, do you think that person should take ownership in the company? Ok, maybe they should, but of course if they are taking…

> If they pay someone to create it, do you think that person should take ownership in the company?

What do you think the people working every day are doing? They're literally creating the company. If they don't exist, the company stops existing, because companies are just people working. Effort in, revenue out. Divide up the profits by the amount of effort put into the business.

If the founder wants to profit from their idea, they should be more worried about the equity they already have and their personal impact on its value than their annual compensation going forward. Continually getting paid for an idea you already had and were already compensated for is wild.

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