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Valve Introduces Proton Next

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Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#241
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling people hit a bad game or two and stopped checking, so I just want to say native ports actually work fine in my experience, both before and after Proton's birth. Terraria, Garry's Mod, Valve's own titles, and Starbound should all work fine to name a few. I fear we'll get fewer proper native ports because of Proton, so it's hard for me to get excited about it. Especially with how it seems to be on by…

Looking over the Linux ecosystem, I would say that Linux itself has far more blame for the lack of native ports than the developers do. Developing for Linux is complicated, requires constant intervention, has frequent compatibility gotchas, has little "best practices" established, among other issues. Games are complicated things - name one native Linux port that works just fine on Fedora 37 when it was built for Ubun…

> name one native Linux port that works just fine on Fedora 37 when it was built for Ubuntu 16.04.

That really depends on what you mean by "built for Ubuntu 16.04". If you mean compiled on Ubuntu 16.04 with the default toolchain and just the resulting binary dumped on Steam then sure, that might not work today (but even then, the Steam runtime might be old enough). If you mean released when Ubuntu 16.04 but using best practices (bundle what you use except base system libs, statically link what you can including the C++ stdlib, don't export symbols you don't need) then I can go find many such games.

> For an example of this, read Mike Rose about the game Defenders. Linux was 0.8% of sales, but over 50% of technical complaints.

Complaints or bug reports? Because the culture about reporting bugs is very different between Linux and Windows. Personally I prefer people telling me about problems with my software. And if your problem is that this creates too much work to track the bugs then do what valve did: Create a public community-curated bug tracker.

> Whereas, if they dumped it for a Proton build, the onus is no longer on them for a working Linux build or for compatibility issues on Linux - its way easier to just say YMMV.

And if it does break then the Linux players are left without recourse unless the game is big enough that Valve makes it a priority. As a user I am going to keep rewarding those developers that at least pretend that they will give a shit if their update breaks the game for me.

> Blaming developers for the lack of native games is like the pot calling the kettle black. Until Linux becomes a decent platform to build for, developers aren't interested in rewriting major parts of their games every time the Linux community has a new idea.

There were many native ports during the Steam Machine gold rush. And many ports being done by a single person in not too much time. I remain unconvinced that the lack of ports is really about technical issues (even if I agree that there is room for improvement) but rather about lack of business interest due to the tiny market share. Don't tell me that you can squeeze your port into the limited hardware and arbitrary restrictions of a handheld console but can't manage to wrangle library dependencies. It's about incentives, not the size of the problems.

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#242
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How the fuck do other grownups do it? (I'm 49, and exhausted all the time) I suppose the answer is "they don't". I've found that I can't really commit to any side project any more because my time off is not consistent. Also: > 5pm-8pm doing stuff with the kids You're a better parent than me. I have such days, but I can't say I spend this much quality time with my child every day. In any case I have a friend from tw…

“One parent as the homemaker” — this looks very unfair in 2022.

IIRC this appears to still be the standard in e.g. Switzerland. Expensive (2-3k CHF per month) daycare only incentives this further.

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#243
post #173
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this true for everything? There are open-source games (a great example is Mindustry) that are available for free elsewhere while costing to buy via Steam.

No, it's only true if you're selling steam keys for cheaper on other sites. Devs can generate steam keys for free and have other sites sell them, but they're not allowed to list them for cheaper than what's on steam. Steam makes $0 off these steam keys and it still costs them money (bandwidth and such) so it's a more than fair deal asking to not list them for cheaper. If you're using a completely different distributi…

It isn’t restricted to Steam keys. It’s anytime you sell the same game for a net cheaper price elsewhere on the internet.

This is the dominant reason that the Epic store isn’t taking off, because Steam is enforcing network effects. Devs can’t switch and so customers won’t switch.

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#244

Why doesn't Apple put this much effort into bring MacOS into the same realm as Windows in terms of gaming? You would think they would invest more money and time taking away one of the last major advantages of Windows vs. MacOS. Microsoft obviously sees gaming as one of the big advantages to Windows, hence why they have been buying up gaming studios and combining Xbox and Windows into the one gaming platform.

I know why Apple doesn't care to do so, but I really wish they would at least just work with Valve enough to make Proton on Mac a reality. There was a brief moment where Steam for Mac was announced on stage at an Apple event and Macs got the Half-Life series, Portal, Team Fortress 2, and many others. Now these games won't even launch on a modern Mac because they are still 32-bit binaries that were never updated. If A…

> Now these games won't even launch on a modern Mac because they are still 32-bit binaries that were never updated.

The cost of updating all games ever released and of maintaining a 32-bit compat layer is so incomparable that dropping that layer only makes sense because they expect other companies to bear that cost.

Same for Ubuntu or other Linux distros wanting to drop x86 - makes things slightly easier for them but an absolute insane move for the overall ecosystem.

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#245
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own experience with Proton has been a bit more spotty, maybe because I tried it with some really old games that are not that well tested? Bioshock 1 crashed several times, then I got it to work with some hints from ProtonDB, Bioshock 2 worked "out of the box", Batman: Arkham City (which I bought years ago and never actually got around to playing) didn't work, and I wasn't motivated enough to fiddle with the settin…

> Bioshock 1 crashed several times, then I got it to work with some hints from ProtonDB Bioshock is a tricky one because it runs very close to the virtual address space limit (2GiB) and Wine + in-process graphics drivers add just enough overhead to make push it over the edge in more cases than on Windows. This isn't purely a Wine/Proton issue though and can also cause crashes on Windows for the game. For Bioshock it…

Thanks, yeah, that would explain what happened - the game would start up fine, I could play for a while (saving often just in case), and then at some point (often when moving into an area I hadn't entered yet) it would suddenly get choppy and crash a few seconds later. I guess at that point it ran out of memory.

...any hints for Arkham City ;) ?

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#246

A reminder once again that Proton only exists because, for all the benefits of Linux, making a native Linux port is a massive mess. The community calling for developers to make native ports often forget that Linux's userland stability and consistency is simply not at the level developers expect or need for a quality port. Until the day arrives when you can install a game on, say, Fedora 37 that was initially develope…

Proton would exist even if porting to Linux would be trivial because many games would still not be ported.

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#247

I want to buy a SteamDeck. But I don't think I have the spare hours. After work, taking care of the kids, and housework I _might_ have 1 spare hour a day to sit down with the wife. I'd rather watch something on TV with her. To have any kind of free time I have to stay up till 1am! I could bring the SteamDeck when I bring the kids to the park, but that just feels like I'm cheating the kids. I work from home. 8am-9am g…

You get more time as they get older, and in fact it is good for you to not spend as much time with them - they should be doing a lot on their own with other kids. Kicking them out of the house to go play is a wonderful thing to do, assuming you have an neighborhood that supports it. By the time they are 12 or so they start really not wanting to do a lot with their parents, and then by 15 or so it's hard to book any time with them! So just wait, you'll get time back eventually ;)

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved GoG idea, but their resistance to steam deck and linux just lost me. I play everything on the Deck now, so they literally lost me as a customer. Which makes me angry, because I find insane that my 1000 games Steam library is fully locked when i'm playing one game, but we are 4 now...

The steam deck is a steam machine, supporting it means supporting their direct and much more successful competitor. I understand the feeling since I have also gog games and a deck, I also understand why they don't want to do it

Yes and no. They are not in the hardware business at all, and they are losing customers because of it. So by supporting LINUX, which has been asked for ages, they will have the side effect of supporting Steam Deck and regain some customers. I don't think it's black and white as it looks.

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved GoG idea, but their resistance to steam deck and linux just lost me. I play everything on the Deck now, so they literally lost me as a customer. Which makes me angry, because I find insane that my 1000 games Steam library is fully locked when i'm playing one game, but we are 4 now...

> Which makes me angry, because I find insane that my 1000 games Steam library is fully locked when i'm playing one game, but we are 4 now... FWIW, many games can be launched directly without Steam. There's also [0] for the rest depending on how you view things you might as well pirate the games at that pint. [0] https://gitlab.com/Mr_Goldberg/goldberg_emulator

I bought 1000 games, definitely don't feel guilty. I know of some workarounds, the problem is I have to teach them to a 4 years old now .

I'll check the emulator. Does it run on the deck? I do 90% of my gaming on the deck now.

Edit: oh it's for multiplayer, I don't need it. I play only single player games, exception maybe for monster hunter, if you consider that multiplayer.

Re: Valve Introduces Proton Next

#250
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only potential contender for me would be GOG but their Linux support discourages any steps towards it. Steam all the way for now!

I loved GoG idea, but their resistance to steam deck and linux just lost me. I play everything on the Deck now, so they literally lost me as a customer. Which makes me angry, because I find insane that my 1000 games Steam library is fully locked when i'm playing one game, but we are 4 now...

There is family library sharing: https://store.steampowered.com/sharing/
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