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Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

missionlocal.org

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Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#131

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

anonexpat wrote: post #104
bigDinosaur wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the military can change the entire planet by invading Iraq (or wherever) based on a lie tomorrow leading to the destabilisation of entire regions and ramifications that will last not just for decades but potentially centuries. And it's arguable that much military abuse is actually 'held' to the higher standard as opposed to ignored covered up, or redefined (e.g. definitions of combatants), but I suppose th…

I think that’s a political problem, not a military one.

Bingo.

The military is a tool wielded by the government. They don't go anywhere without being ordered.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#132

Post by chrisseaton »

woodruffw wrote: post #100
tvszzzz wrote: post #92

I see a lot of knee jerk reactions in the thread but I actually don't see why you wouldn't be okay with this if you're already okay with police having guns. I believe there is a more nuanced view point here. A few points: - This is about remote controlled guns. A human is still making the decision and all of the same rules and oversight apply. You can make an argument for existing oversight is insufficient but that i…

The chief concern that I can think of with a remote-controlled weapon is that it derealizes the person on the other end of the barrel, and derealizes the operation of the weapon. It's easier to kill someone when the action is disconnected from the physics. Compare, for example, the US using video game controllers to pilot drones in Afghanistan. One wonders how many botched drone missions wouldn't have been performed…

> One wonders how many botched drone missions wouldn't have been performed in the first place had the operators been physically present in the areas they were attacking.

They wouldn’t be any more connected to the people if they were in a secure US camp in country, I think.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#133

Post by blamazon »

calibas wrote: post #62

localtoday.news copied the article from here: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/san-francisco-police-seek-pe... Which copied the article from here: https://www.engadget.com/san-francisco-police-seek-permissio... Which is a rewrite of the original article here: https://missionlocal.org/2022/11/killer-robots-to-be-permitt...

I wonder what could be incentivizing all these groups to rush to publish copy pasta articles so they can run salacious headlines of killer robots.

Oh, I've got it, it's journalism!

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#134

Post by pclmulqdq »

JadeNB wrote: post #99
treeman79 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that killer robots are a bad idea. Asking a cop to walk into an active shooter situation isn’t great either.

> Asking a cop to walk into an active shooter situation isn’t great either. Indeed, cops are just humans, and we correctly think of them as such when asking them to perform duties on behalf of the citizens they are supposed to protect. But somehow, when it comes time to holding them accountable for misdeeds carried out in the course of their professional duties, they are held apart from other humans. At least one sid…

Qualified immunity is a precedent that needs to go away. Cops and other government officials should be much more liable for their bad acts.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#135

Post by chrisseaton »

chroma wrote: post #120
bcherny wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US police already use force too often. Presumably, something stopping police from using even more force is that they too are human: they need to look their victims in the face before deciding whether to use force. I worry what will happen if you take this humanizing, moderating aspect out of the decision for whether to use violence.

It's the opposite. If cops were invulnerable, they'd be far less likely to use lethal force. It's usually because they fear for their lives that they shoot.

They seem to shoot dogs, unarmed people, actual crime victims, when there’s no fear for their lives.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#136

Post by roughly »

treeman79 wrote: post #88
wheresmycraisin wrote: post #25

I can't possibly imagine how anyone thinks this is a good idea. US police are already over-militarized and under-accountable. We as Americans need to stop worshiping "men in uniform" including all levels of law enforcement and military and hold them to the same standard as any other member of society -- stop giving them everything they want and stop spoiling them when they call us unpatriotic.

I agree that killer robots are a bad idea. Asking a cop to walk into an active shooter situation isn’t great either.

> Asking a cop to walk into an active shooter situation isn’t great either.

That’s quite literally the job.

There’s a bunch of other stuff cops do, but at the end of the day, they exist to risk violence so the rest of us don’t have to - without that, there’s no point to a group of state-sanctioned violence dealers.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#137

Post by Alupis »

cmckn wrote: post #116
Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>over-militarized Can you explain what you mean by this? I've heard this term a lot, but it's not clear which aspect is the issue. For example, bullet proof vests: how is this bad? Similar with rifles such as the AR-15 - police already had pistols, nobody called them militarized for that. A riffle is just a more accurate pistol. I'd rather a cop have a riffle than a pistol for that reason: it's more safe. Beyond thes…

Police departments literally own tanks. https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/towns-dont-need-... Plus things like grenade launchers are provided to police departments by the Department of Defense, at steep discounts or for free, through the 1033 Program: https://www.dla.mil/Disposition-Services/Offers/Law-Enforcem...

To be pedantic, that is not a tank. That is an armored personnel carrier.

The article is also wrong about the military restraining from using .50 caliber machine guns on infantry... but it's very clear the person that wrote the article really doesn't know much about these things anyway.

I agree the uses for a .50 caliber machine gun for policing is very, very few if any. However, .50 caliber firearms are indeed used quite often, just not automatic ones.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#138

Post by bandyaboot »

vorpalhex wrote: post #70
woodruffw wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That qualification hasn't meant much, going by the rate at which police hurt themselves (and innocent members of the public) with their own service weapons.

I agree police should get more training. You will have to fund them more if you want that.

Maybe they could start by selling all those military toys.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#139

Post by mushbino »

blamazon wrote: post #15

Note that under discussion is only remote controlled electromechanical devices. They are not requesting permission for autonomous killer robots. (yet) Surprisingly, there is already precedent for this in US policing. All the way back in 2016, a gunman in Dallas was killed by police using a bomb defusal robot with remote-control explosives attached to it: https://www.texastribune.org/2016/07/08/use-robot-kill-dalla...

Aaron Peskin added a line saying something to the effect of "shall not be used to kill people". SFPD sent it back with a red line through that part.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#140

Post by quickthrower2 »

POiNTx wrote: post #6

Isn't this just a remotely controlled gun? If we'd be talking about AI making its own decisions that's a different thing. In addition to this I feel better decisions would be made when the person holding the gun isn't threatened by his or her life.

On the other hand, the decision to shoot is going to be based on a lower fidelity information than available if the officer has a gun.

And I think the US should really be going in the direction of fewer guns, i.e. gun control. The US has way more guns per person, gun deaths per 100,000, proportion of homicide/suicide by gun than any other country. Pick one of those "dangerous countries" you are advised not to visit ... they have way less than the US on all these stats.

The police could lead the way by using force that doesn't maime or kill to control situations. That is where the innovation should happen. A robot could be ideal here - send in a robot to disarm, control, resolve, but not to kill.

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