Live data from Hacker News

High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

tremendous.com

461–470 of 524 posts

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#461

Moving to America from France, one of my biggest surprises was how poor the average engineer (person really, but engineers affect me directly at work) is at summarizing concepts clearly. I learned a little later that "summary" exercises are not a thing taught in school here, which surprised me. In France, "le résumé" is an exercise that they constantly drill into students (particularly technical ones), in which you t…

Teaching how to write summaries in the US would be a good idea. To make things even worse, in the US most essays are assigned a minimum length so students learn to pad their writing with lots of fluff and circumlocutions.

I'm convinced there must be a prescribed US essay structure that mandates describing what you're going to discuss in the essay - it has been poorly translated into the style for youtube videos.

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#462

If you have a high-documentation culture, you must have documentation enforcer roles. It's crazy to think you would have a library without librarians to run it. There must be people who sole role in the company is to spend time on each team (in sequence) trying to follow or review their docs and get X running "like the docs say" This group of enforcers will contain a variety of people from tech, legal, customer servi…

Designers to design, draughtspeople to draught, archivists to archive.

Engineering entails a lot of secretarial work that has been "streamlined" by expecting engineers to do it themselves rather than employing professional secretaries to do so. The end result is that it is often left un-done.

The "enforcers" you talk about are basically secretaries, no? Trained individuals with enough understanding of the work at hand to record and file it in a context-aware manner.

Reminds me of the "surgical team" model from The Mythical Man Month [1] wherein there is a suite of people provided to every engineer to minimise their work outside of design and implementation. (At least that's how I remember it, it's a few years since I read it)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#463

In order for this to work, you also need a high-reading work culture, which is distinct from a high-writing (documentation) work culture.

As the only person on my team who routinely documents my work (or at least who does so in a place visible to others), I definitely agree. I get very tired of people asking me things about my work where the reply is "it's in the docs, please check here: ." Makes me feel like a directory.

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#464

From the outside, Gitlab seems to have solved this with a medium-sized org with all remote, and it sounds like a dream remote workplace. Async communication, full transparency, 90-day retention in slack which forces decisions into documentation if it's important, issues/threads for discussions, and handbook for SOPs [1] Anyone have experience with this directly that can speak to if this works in practice? Or is Gitla…

GitLab team member here.

Sharing a personal insight - I'm currently moving flats in the Nuremberg area in Germany which is a little hectic because forced out by the new house flat owner. Async work enables me to take calls and go shopping to organize the move, whilst shifting work hours into the evening or early morning. I am also able to take paid time off (PTO) when needed to prepare the move early December. In my previous office job, I would have needed to reserve a lot of vacation days for this, and ask for permission to start later than 10am, or leave earlier than 4pm. Here at GitLab, I am my own manager [0] and take care about my working hours - it is a personal freedom, and I appreciate these less stressful times a lot. In return, I can take time to focus on private life, and come back refreshed to produce great results (blog posts, talks, helpful replies here and other community channels, etc.).

What I learned in the past 2 years and 9 months at GitLab, is to provide as much context as needed so that someone else in a different timezone can continue async, and is not blocked by anything (low context communication [1]). Also, short toes [2] enable everyone to add their thoughts and opinions, and work with the directly individual responsible (DRI) for the best outcome.

The Slack retention period of 90 days is a great reminder (and also enforcement) to document everything in the handbook. Example from today: I learned that Google docs supports the colon for emoji live-search. Thought of sharing in Slack, but then went with editing the handbook and sending a MR [3] to help everyone find this little efficiency tip in the future - that said, Slack is not a knowledge base. The GitLab handbook is.

Thinking about the past year with a public discussion about speaker diversity at events, I admire our teams to take action to ensure events align with our diversity, inclusion and belonging values. We have updated our event requirements for speakers (MR [4], handbook page [5]), and are working with event organizers and the wider community to help with mentoring and coaching to inspire future speakers.

Last but not least, transparency [6]. Internal and external, I can read and learn async at my own pace. Most of my meetings are optional, and the meeting notes/recording are detailed, with follow-up actions. You'll never recap old meeting notes the next time but reference actioned issues and merge requests. Many issues/epics are public - if you'd like to learn more about my thought leadership strategy for Observability, and all content created and planned, you can follow this epic [7] or my profile activity [8] for example.

I haven't met everyone in-person yet, because of the pandemic, and travel only for some events (KubeCon EU/NA, PromCon EU [9] [10]), but I am looking forward to meet and value these moments. Hard to describe, I feel incredibly connected to my teams albeit living far far away. :-)

Happy to share more thoughts and insights - my role is on the community relations/developer evangelism team, I'm the stable counterpart for the product teams, and collaborate in cross-functional initiatives often. [11] My first [12] and second [13] year blog posts share more experiences too :-)

[0] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/leadership/#managers-of-on...

[1] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#effective-c...

[2] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/values/#short-toes

[3] https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/-/merge_request...

[4] https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/-/merge_request...

[5] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/marketing/corporate-market...

[6] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/values/#transparency

[7] https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-com/marketing/-/epics/2593

[8] https://gitlab.com/dnsmichi

[9] https://dnsmichi.at/2022/06/13/my-kubecon-eu-experience-firs...

[10] https://opsindev.news/archive/2022-11-23/#promcon-eu

[11] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/marketing/community-relati...

[12] https://dnsmichi.at/2021/03/02/my-1st-year-all-remote-at-git...

[13] https://dnsmichi.at/2022/03/02/2-years-all-remote-and-2022-v...

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#465
> 5 minute read

Either the author is some kind of reading savant, or this metric is way off. That's over 400 words a minute for a semi-technical persuasive essay, with multiple graphs.

I know there are marketing analytics out there saying that you must write everything in a 3-7 minute read band to maximize audience reach, but I don't think just telling people a long article is short is a good way to go about that.

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching how to write summaries in the US would be a good idea. To make things even worse, in the US most essays are assigned a minimum length so students learn to pad their writing with lots of fluff and circumlocutions.

I'm convinced there must be a prescribed US essay structure that mandates describing what you're going to discuss in the essay - it has been poorly translated into the style for youtube videos.

Yes, this is literally the case from grade school all the way into college level technical writing courses. The first paragraph, or first section depending on the length of the work, should essentially be a high level summary of the entire work. I remember in middle school we were also taught to write our paragraphs this way, that is, the first sentence should be a gestalt of the entire paragraph. The conclusion of each paragraph, and also the conclusory paragraph itself, is also supposed to have this behavior to some extent.

It took me quite a few years to realize how dry, boring, and repetitive this makes your writing, and I now choose to write as I talk. Might make for worse documentation, but it's far better for conversing with other people either in real time or in back-and-forths via email.

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just sounds like rebuilding Notion internally, and this is coming from someone who uses Obsidian locally and Notion company-wide.

notion lost appeal when I noticed that search doesn't work. E.g. I have a page with wireguard mentioned in text and I cannot find it when searching for wireguard.

yeah notion's search never seems to provide me with what i am actually looking for.

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching how to write summaries in the US would be a good idea. To make things even worse, in the US most essays are assigned a minimum length so students learn to pad their writing with lots of fluff and circumlocutions.

I'm convinced there must be a prescribed US essay structure that mandates describing what you're going to discuss in the essay - it has been poorly translated into the style for youtube videos.

Say what you're going to say (briefly)

Say it (at length)

Say what you've said (briefly)

Is how you successfully present things in the US

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#469
post #222
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think even the idea of merging changes is a step too far for all but the most technical users. Most user's idea of what it should look like start and end at a word-like UI, so having to introduce the idea of merging different copies together and resolving conflicts is too far outside that view. In my opinion this is why Google docs has become popular because it solves that tricky problem of having to think about ho…

I do agree that an online google doc style WYSIWYG markdown solution would be preferable for non technical and then git and markdown for technical would be the ideal solution.

I'm technical and I still prefer WYSIWYG for writing documents. I want it to be easy for me to pull in rich content (images, info boxes, column formatting)

It's ok to be technical and not enjoy markdown, heh.

Re: High-documentation, low-meeting work culture

#470
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doesn't Amazon have a similar structure, tho? i don't know what it's actually like to work there (anyone who does feel free to chime in) but i've interviewed and from what I can tell they put a heavy emphasis on documentation. it's tough to find a bigger and more siloed company than Amazon, and it seems to work for them.

Amazon is high documentation, high meetings culture. The documentation is reviewed by peers, bar raisers, and leaders in a process called document read before being official. Edit: Someone asked for more detail on high meeting culture. There are constant meetings between cross-functional teams, various leadership stakeholders, and ongoing operational planning. That is not including your day to day meetings within you…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN