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Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

trevorklee.substack.com

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Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#361

I am a vascular surgeon, and have many patients in the ICU constantaly. #6 confuses me - the original operating surgeon should be a constant through the patient’s stay. And while the ICU doctor might be the captain while the patient is in the ICU, the original surgeon is the general. He has complete control and should dominate the patient’s care. While the surgeon can not be bedside 24/7, they or someone from their t…

I recently had emergency surgery for an obstructed small intestine and the surgeon was pretty much in charge of my care. I can't tell you how many times I heard "we have to talk to the surgeon before we do xxx" Members of his team saw me every morning and he came around every afternoon. This was at the West Palm Beach Medical Center in SE Florida.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s essentially unheard of to have someone die because a resident made a mistake on call. On-call medicine is so rote as to not require much, if any, thinking. Ward medicine is far less intellectually challenging than teaching. Patients who are active/critical are not managed by a single tired resident overnight.

We had a case a few years ago in Argentina, when a child got an overdose of Potassium Chloride. The nurse was new in the hospital and in the previous hospital they had a different concentration, so she prepared a wrong dilution. [1]. Anyway, it's a problem that is common enough that the English NHS added it to a list of recommendations [page 8] https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/2018-N... It looks…

Not sure what this has to do with resident/physician work hours.

Nursing errors (i.e. administering the wrong dose) can certainly kill people. They also don’t / shouldn’t work 24 hours shifts (infrequently a nurse might work a double due to emergent staffing requirements, this is a systems issue though and not by design).

There are both technological (EMR and ordering systems) and human safeguards (nurses and pharmacy) protecting against “silly mistakes” by physicians.

Once again, resident physicians’ roles overnights are no where near as mission critical as a nurse.

You also identified a key point in why 24 hour resident call shifts are safe - we have checklists.

If I order the wrong med on the wrong patient on an overnight call shift this will be flagged by the nurse who’s checklist includes verifying order accuracy. This is especially true of medications that can have life threatening complications (e.g. insulin, potassium, hypertonic saline).

Please also note I’m only talking about places I’ve trained (US and Canada) where all of these systems exist. I cannot comment on other countries where the infrastructure is different, perhaps this is more of an issue in Argentina than it is here.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had a case a few years ago in Argentina, when a child got an overdose of Potassium Chloride. The nurse was new in the hospital and in the previous hospital they had a different concentration, so she prepared a wrong dilution. [1]. Anyway, it's a problem that is common enough that the English NHS added it to a list of recommendations [page 8] https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/2018-N... It looks…

Not sure what this has to do with resident/physician work hours. Nursing errors (i.e. administering the wrong dose) can certainly kill people. They also don’t / shouldn’t work 24 hours shifts (infrequently a nurse might work a double due to emergent staffing requirements, this is a systems issue though and not by design). There are both technological (EMR and ordering systems) and human safeguards (nurses and pharmac…

Probably the system is not so difference, because here sometimes they just copy whatever the FDA says (or whoever is in charge of that).

It depends a lot on the hospital. There are good hospitals and bad hospitals.

There was a recent strike of the residents doctors in the capital of Argentina. https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/sociedad/no-llega...

> By contract, [...], a resident has to serve eight hours a day, Monday through Friday, and do eight 24-hour shifts per month.

> “We work shifts of more than eight hours, which can reach 15 or more and with guards that are also on weekends. There are colleagues who work 40 hours straight,"

(The last one is a quote of one of the union leaders, so it may be a corner case.)

If it were so automatic and repetitive, it would be easy to pass the information to the next medic and have normal length shifts.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the root of it is recognition that mental health is as important as physical health, and that losing weight isn’t as easy as many people assume, and shouldn’t be done the way many people try - so actively shaming and criticizing fat people for being fat is of negative health utility overall.

> o actively shaming and criticizing fat people for being fat is of negative health utility overall. Fair enough. But then what do you suggest we do as an alternative to normalizing diabetes and obesity? To your point - kinda - about losing weight. Changing behavior isn't any easier when there are too few environmental signals to nudge behavior in a more healthy direction. As humans, we are wired to assume the norm w…

I think that it's also important to realize that maximizing "health" is not some kind of absolute goal. Not every aspect of life needs to be optimized to the highest level.

Of course, obesity is a huge issue (especially in the U.S. compared to many other "developed" countries) that can affect people's lives negatively and causes further medical issues such as diabetes, and ultimately can prevent people from leading a life that is as fulfilling and meaningful as they would have liked.

But we are still dealing with people here, not rats in a laboratory experiment, and I think the issues that directly follow from being obese are already bad enough that it does not help to pile on more shame by treating those people as being "weak-willed" or something of the sort, or denying them basic human dignity and respect for being outside the sacred norm. Do we really have to add artificial negative consequences for being overweight? Does that help those people have a more fulfilling and meaningful life?

I don't think people will just forget the direct negative physical/social consequences of being overweight by not being reminded of them all the time in a moralistic tone (and even just reminding people of such information can be moralizing, depending on the context in which the information is provided).

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#365
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all will be old one day, if lucky. My comment was not about you because you happen to be old right now. But are you unfamiliar with typical end of life care in the US? Where the last few years is a constant stream of hospitalizations, rehabilitation, etc with no quality of life and no tangible benefit but a very substantial cost? I find that concept… interesting… as in, I don’t like paying the cost and I don’t int…

I’m familiar with all those issues and have been for years. Have taken both parents through agonizing deaths. Doesn’t make comments like yours less unsettling.

Probably no productive discourse to be had. We fundamentally have different views and I respect that.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what this has to do with resident/physician work hours. Nursing errors (i.e. administering the wrong dose) can certainly kill people. They also don’t / shouldn’t work 24 hours shifts (infrequently a nurse might work a double due to emergent staffing requirements, this is a systems issue though and not by design). There are both technological (EMR and ordering systems) and human safeguards (nurses and pharmac…

Probably the system is not so difference, because here sometimes they just copy whatever the FDA says (or whoever is in charge of that). It depends a lot on the hospital. There are good hospitals and bad hospitals. There was a recent strike of the residents doctors in the capital of Argentina. https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/sociedad/no-llega... > By contract, [...], a resident has to serve eight hours a d…

> If it were so automatic and repetitive, it would be easy to pass the information to the next medic and have normal length shifts.

Ward call for residents generally works like this:

I have an inpatient list of 15-20 patients I’m covering overnight, some of them I likely know as I’m often part of one of the relevant day teams (unless I’m flying in from another clinical service to help out).

I start by receiving handover from one of the day team members. We sit down together (or by phone) and go patient by patient on the list asking what their reason for admission is, any labs/results I need to follow up on from the day (e.g. patient A had a fever and a cough, we ordered a chest X-ray if it shows pneumonia start antibiotics), patient specific management plans (e.g. patient B may have a seizure overnight, he’s known for this and if it happens give drug Y.) and any patients that I specifically need to see (e.g. patient C was complaining of some belly pain this morning but has been fine the rest of the day, eyeball him in the evening and make sure nothing is brewing).

I then write these action items and notes down (either on paper or in an EMR patient list) for my shift and carry out the relevant actions from 5pm to ~10pm.

Between 5pm and ~10pm I’m following things up and seeing any patients I need to see. Depending on my service I may be taking ED/inpatient consults but that’s not the point here so I won’t get into that.

At 10pm I do what’s called “tuck in rounds” and call up to the nursing station and ask if any of the nurses have issues they want me to address. Often this is something like morning labs that haven’t been ordered, laxative orders, etc. If there are any patients I’m worried about (uncommon on routine inpatient wards) I will pop my head in the room to make sure everything is alright. Cumulatively, the evening usually represents 1-2 hours of active work (again disregarding consults because that workflow is very different).

After that, and until the next morning, I am either asleep in a call room bed or at home. I will only be practicing medicine if there is an overnight issue that needs addressing (e.g. a patient is short of breath, their heart rate is elevated, decreased level of consciousness). These acute ward issues are beaten into every physician from the beginning of medical school and we follow very routine diagnostic workups (i.e. CBC, lytes, glucose, VBG), many of which are codified in algorithms such as ACLS.

If a patient is really unstable I call the RACE/code team (an in-house service to deal with unstable issues staffed by an ICU trainee, RT, and ICU nurse with advanced training) who assume care while I provide support and context as the home service/MRP resident.

This is a very safe system. It is really hard to kill an inpatient with a medical error in an acute setting.

Now let’s pretend I handed over to a night resident starting at 11pm. Two potential sources for error arise:

1. We would go over the same process of “running the list” and discussing patients, except now it’s second hand information I’m relating (versus my initial handover was from the primary team/MRP who knows the patient intimately). Broken telephone / forgotten action items becomes more likely.

2. An acute situation happens overnight and the 3rd shift person alerts the RACE service, except now the resident from the home team/MRP has never actually met the patient (you don’t go round and familiarize yourself with sleeping patients) and has no idea what they’ve been like all day except from what I’ve told them. This creates a huge problem because now they’re reading through the chart/notes to make sure this is a new symptom and not something I forgot to tell them about, they’re also reading the chart to see if there were any action items I addressed in my evening shift that didn’t merit handover but may be related to the acute concern. Whereas with the same resident on a 16-24 hour shift you have a much better understanding of the patients and their unique circumstances.

Many, many, many studies have shown medical errors happen a lot more due to handover than physician fatigue. You can argue that we should have better systems/IT in place to make handover safer, but we do not. Even places with systems like Epic/Cerner, it takes too much effort to maintain the handover list with accuracy and direct verbal communication remains the mainstay.

Furthermore, it’s important to keep in mind that dealing with ward issues between 12am and 7am is also pretty uncommon unless there is a late admission or someone that’s active, but that’s atypical. On-call is for emergency coverage not active medical practice.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#367
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m familiar with all those issues and have been for years. Have taken both parents through agonizing deaths. Doesn’t make comments like yours less unsettling.

Probably no productive discourse to be had. We fundamentally have different views and I respect that.

I didn't express any views, only emotions. What disturbs me is that our views appear to be very similar. It's just at my age it is not exactly comforting.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not making American doctors do 4-years of an undergraduate "premed" degree will not meaningfully lower standards. Nor will creating more residency slots. We don't need better outcomes. We will happily take the existing outcomes but cheaper.

It’s unclear to me how removing the requirement for an undergraduate degree (side note, it is not actually required at many or most US medical schools) will lower healthcare costs.

> it is not actually required at many or most US medical schools

Source for this? That's surprising to me and a brief Google search tells me the exact opposite.[1]

You really don't understand how reducing the number of years it takes to train a doctor, after they complete high school, will lower healthcare costs? Are you unfamiliar with supply and demand, or the relationship between the cost of production and pricing?

1. https://www.shemmassianconsulting.com/blog/medical-school-re...

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#369
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not making American doctors do 4-years of an undergraduate "premed" degree will not meaningfully lower standards. Nor will creating more residency slots. We don't need better outcomes. We will happily take the existing outcomes but cheaper.

Is the point you're making here that removing the "premed" undergraduate degree (which doesn't exist) will somehow lead to reduced healthcare costs?

> the "premed" undergraduate degree (which doesn't exist)

Yes there's no undergraduate major named "premed". There's no need to be pedantic. But US medical schools generally require a 4-year undergraduate degree (BA or BS) and certain coursework (biology and chemistry, among others). [1][2]

> will somehow lead to reduced healthcare costs

And yes, I'm saying that if it takes a couple years less to train a doctor - by letting them go directly to medical school after high school and doing the prereq coursework there over maybe 5.5-6 years instead of the current 4 - that will lead to lower healthcare costs. Not sure why that's so controversial of a statement. It's simple supply and demand.

1. https://www.shemmassianconsulting.com/blog/medical-school-re...

2. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/education-programs/md-pr...

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you reply to the wrong comment?

No. In case it was unclear, I was being sarcastic in my reply and pointing out the hypocrisy of being offended that "regular people" would have to foot the bill for ICUs - as if they weren't the ones relying on their existence.

I am not offended that regular people would foot the bill for ICUs if state decides to pay for those. My point is that I do not see why it would be an improvement in any way over the status quo. It will not make them cheaper or more available, most likely quite the opposite.
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