Live data from Hacker News

Nerds and Male Privilege

kotaku.com

241–250 of 258 posts

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure, it's sad men don't get to spend as much time with the kids, but the point is, they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children. Women very often just don't have that choice, and are forced to take just the kids. That's false. A) It is a woman's choice to have children. B) The "Best Interest Clause" creates a power differential over the children. If she wants to work full-time she can…

To the extent which you are correct (which I personally think is modest), the problem is still a sexist system. Historically, most of the sexism has been blatantly anti-female. If we are getting to the point when it is now arguable that women don't have the short end of the stick, then that's great news. However, if you would like the elimination of sexism to continue and solve some of the things that bug you persona…

The trouble is that the "bandwagon of the last century or so" has no interest in doing anything about this particular form of sexism. Pretty much everyone supports children being automatically treated as their mother's property - including feminists - to the point that if you stand up to this you'll almost certainly be accused of wanting kids to be their father's property. The accusation usually sticks too - it's such a deep-rooted assumption that everyone just talks about doing what's in the "best interests" of the kids without even stopping to think whether it is.

Not even if it involves an underage rape victim paying child support to his rapist to raise their kids. Not even if it means keeping the father of some kids away from them long enough for their mother to brutally murder them, ignoring the warning signs she was showing and just choosing the "safe" option of assuming their father is dangerous based on his gender. (Not hypothetical examples by the way.)

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is so common that it appears on the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: http://derailingfordummies.com/#butbut (Note that they include as an example your false equivalence between circumcision and female genital mutilation.) This is really incredible, " Because the removal of a tiny flap of skin is entirely comparable to the crippling mutilation many young girls are subjected to. ." Seriously? Why is the rem…

Yes, the language of the whole piece is intentionally inflammatory. Satire: it's a recognized literary form. Note that you entirely ignore my actual point, which is that you have taken a discussion about sexism and male privilege and tried to make it about you and your concerns as a guy. And that your behavior is common enough that somebody took the time to include it in a guide of lame responses to discussions of pr…

It's more than a little inflammatory. For example, did you know the law against FGC in the US is so strict that if you so much as symbolically prick any part of a girl's genitals with a pin to draw blood (an often-proposed symbolic replacement) you're committing a crime punishable by 5 years in jail. This isn't just an accident; attempts to make this kind of symbolic prick legal have been roundly attacked and are not politically viable.

Comparing that to male circumcision is an insult to men.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#243
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's sad men don't get to spend as much time with the kids, but the point is, they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children. Women very often just don't have that choice, and are forced to take just the kids. That sounds worse to me. ( http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/18616558/ns/today-books/t/why-... ) Also, women are actively punished for asking for more money, or being aggressive:…

>Sure, it's sad men don't get to spend as much time with the kids, but the point is, they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children. Women very often just don't have that choice, and are forced to take just the kids. That's false. A) It is a woman's choice to have children. B) The "Best Interest Clause" creates a power differential over the children. If she wants to work full-time she can…

Let's spell this out.

A woman can either have just kids, or just a career.

A man can have just kids, just a career, or a career and kids.

Who has more options?

Your assumption that women "choose" to always be the stay at home parent is questionable, too. As if the husband, and society in general, have no expectations that women are the best caretakers and should therefore be the ones to stay at home, and no additional influence on her choice.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#244
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's sad men don't get to spend as much time with the kids, but the point is, they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children. Women very often just don't have that choice, and are forced to take just the kids. That sounds worse to me. ( http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/18616558/ns/today-books/t/why-... ) Also, women are actively punished for asking for more money, or being aggressive:…

> they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children Unless mommy divorces them and takes their kids away, at which point they can have their career, and they can pay for the kids, but they can't actually spend much time with them.

Yes, that's true, and that sucks. I won't deny that, and I feel terrible for any man that happens too, and I wish the courts were truly gender-equal in this respect. But the flipside of always granting women custody of children is immense social pressure for women to give up their careers to raise children, or to at least face huge energy expenditures in balancing both that men don't, and on balance, I think women are still getting the shorter end of the stick. It's within your control to avoid marrying a bitch or to maintain your marriage; it's harder to dodge societal expectations that because you're female, you'll be a poorer employee. Given the choice between two problems, I'll pick tackling the one where I have more control over the outcome. Wouldn't you?

Most feminists don't focus explicitly on making it easier for men to intrude into traditional female-dominated activities like childrearing, but hopefully, as it becomes more normal for women to enter the same spheres as men, the reverse will hold true too, and the courts will be more likely to see men as equal and not inferior caregivers. So even if feminism isn't explicitly about helping men, I think it's still on their side.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you help me better understand the theory that circumcision results from female privilege? It doesn't result from female privilege, it is considered a non-issue and discounted because of female privilege. There is plenty of evidence to support that, including the fact that FGM is considered a larger issue although it has effectively been eliminated in the west. Consider this, if a father wanted to have his newbo…

I agree with you that ritual circumcision is dubious and I'd be happy to see everybody give it up (except when medically necessary, which happens sometimes), but am not persuaded that it's relevant to this discussion. [...] it is considered a non-issue and discounted because of female privilege. That is a statement you have not supported. For it to be true, there'd have to be some evidence that women generally were f…

For it to be true, there'd have to be some evidence that women generally were forcing it on men.

So in order for something to be privilege it must be forced on the other gender? So lets examine some items on the male privilege checklist against that standard:

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true.

Did men force women to accept affirmative action which in some cases does give women jobs that they would have not gotten if they were competing on merits alone? Take a look at this, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/science/17comp.html?_r=1&#.... It appears that Carnegie Mellon lowered entrance standards to admit more women into the computer science program. Is a man that isn't admitted obligated to believe that sex has nothing to do with it? Why is it acceptable to reject more-qualified men in favor of less-qualified women? That does not seem very fair.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

And men force this onto women? It's not other women? Is it not acceptable to point out that women who don't have children will be the first women in a line of women going back to the dawn of humanity not to have children, or that only about 40% of men ever procreated, versus a significantly hire percentage of women.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

Men force women to call other women's femininity into question?

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

Men force women to vote for men, and to not run for office? Women are the majority of the population. Is there some invisible man-field that is preventing them from voting every single elected man out of office within the next 6 years?

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

Men force women not to form organizations too?

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

Men must also force women not to produce their own media.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

The vast majority of teachers are female. Please explain how men force female teachers to pay more attention to male students.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.”

Men force women to tolerate promiscuous men?

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.

This is fantastic. I had no idea that I was partly responsible for making women spend a lot of time and money grooming.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

Isn't this phenomenon actually a female creation? All that stuff was illegal, then feminists demanded extra-special protection, so a whole slew of legislation was passed. Now that protection is because of male privilege?

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

Wow, men force women to have periods. I had no idea. I'll try harder to not do that. Or did men just make up PMS to have an excuse to denigrate women? That doesn't seem as likely since it's been scientifically proven to exist.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

Men also forced women to be the only gender capable of producing children?

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

Did those evil men also force women to have less response to visual sexual stimuli? Could that be why romance novels exist, and men don't read them.

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

What a farce. Women commit the majority of domestic violence, and are more likely to use weapons. Twice as many men as women are the victims of severe physical domestic abuse.

It seems that most of the list is an artifact of feminism itself, or has very clear biological or evolutionary origins. Exactly the same could be said of the female privilege associated with not being expendable.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that you entirely ignore my actual point, which is that you have taken a discussion about sexism and male privilege and tried to make it about you and your concerns as a guy. And that your behavior is common enough that somebody took the time to include it in a guide of lame responses to discussions of privilege. Do you see what's wrong with that? I don't subscribe to the view that bringing female privilege into…

It's not off limits. However, if one does it without at all acknowledging the massive problem that feminism has been addressing then it looks a lot like a tactic to prevent any serious discussion of male privilege. Which is something feminists have had to deal with for more than a hundred years, so it's not surprising they react poorly to it. For all your bold talk of "both sides of the coin" I haven't seen you give…

It's not off limits. However, if one does it without at all acknowledging the massive problem that feminism has been addressing then it looks a lot like a tactic to prevent any serious discussion of male privilege.

In the context of sexy females in comic books. Give me a fucking break.

Which is something feminists have had to deal with for more than a hundred years, so it's not surprising they react poorly to it.

If this is the topic feminism must now address, the war is over. It's time to pack up your shit and go home. Feminists are starting to look like Genghis Khan, riding around slaughtering everything. Especially when there are massive actual gender inequalities caused by feminism like the huge advantages that women have in the legal system, the fact that women are given preferential treatment in college admission and hiring processes, and the fact that women earn more money for equal work. Or for example, that female owned businesses are given price preferences, or that women now vastly outnumber men as college graduates, while dominating the education system that is failing men.

For all your bold talk of "both sides of the coin" I haven't seen you give the slightest hint that you even admit the problem or have considered its nature, let alone devoted any energy to solving things.

That's probably because I don't see this as a problem. It is pathetic. I have never read a comic book and have never been in a comic book store, but I see no fundamental difference between comic books and magazines for teenage girls. They are both full of fantasy-land bullshit designed to appeal to young people going through puberty.

What can I do to solve things? I don't know. Perhaps start fighting for men to be able to have financial abortions before a child is born. Or maybe make it a felony to commit paternity fraud. But probably just start calling feminists on their bullshit when they start pontificating.

If you feel there is a market for female-centric comic books, why not develop them, tap a huge market, make something women want, and get rich? If you won't do that, is it because we both know there is not a market for it?

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that ritual circumcision is dubious and I'd be happy to see everybody give it up (except when medically necessary, which happens sometimes), but am not persuaded that it's relevant to this discussion. [...] it is considered a non-issue and discounted because of female privilege. That is a statement you have not supported. For it to be true, there'd have to be some evidence that women generally were f…

For it to be true, there'd have to be some evidence that women generally were forcing it on men. So in order for something to be privilege it must be forced on the other gender? So lets examine some items on the male privilege checklist against that standard: 2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. Did men force women to accept affirmative…

Oooooohkay.

You obviously aren't trying to have an actual discussion here. This confirms my suspicion that you are not interested in actually reducing sexism (anti-female and anti-male alike) and instead are just derailing the discussion. I'm done.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#248
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the extent which you are correct (which I personally think is modest), the problem is still a sexist system. Historically, most of the sexism has been blatantly anti-female. If we are getting to the point when it is now arguable that women don't have the short end of the stick, then that's great news. However, if you would like the elimination of sexism to continue and solve some of the things that bug you persona…

The trouble is that the "bandwagon of the last century or so" has no interest in doing anything about this particular form of sexism. Pretty much everyone supports children being automatically treated as their mother's property - including feminists - to the point that if you stand up to this you'll almost certainly be accused of wanting kids to be their father's property. The accusation usually sticks too - it's suc…

I have hard time believing you have actually read the comment you were replying to. Let me be more explicit:

The historical bias against women is giant and undeniable. Feminists, male and female, have had to fight vigorously to make it as far as we have. Women still face substantial sexism today.

It is also true that men face some sexism. One could argue (very wrongly in my opinion) that we have finally reached the point where harm due to sexism is about the same for men and women.

Regardless, if you leap into a discussion of anti-female sexism and male privilege by only talking about how gosh darned hard it is for men, you look like an ass. By not acknowledging the many decades of struggle, or all of the existing anti-female behavior, you give the impression that you don't care about it. People will assume you're of a piece with the people who've been acting similarly for the last 150 years.

That's entirely alienating, so you're insane to think that the people who have been busily fighting for equality for most of their lives are going to be moved by comments like yours.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not off limits. However, if one does it without at all acknowledging the massive problem that feminism has been addressing then it looks a lot like a tactic to prevent any serious discussion of male privilege. Which is something feminists have had to deal with for more than a hundred years, so it's not surprising they react poorly to it. For all your bold talk of "both sides of the coin" I haven't seen you give…

It's not off limits. However, if one does it without at all acknowledging the massive problem that feminism has been addressing then it looks a lot like a tactic to prevent any serious discussion of male privilege. In the context of sexy females in comic books. Give me a fucking break. Which is something feminists have had to deal with for more than a hundred years, so it's not surprising they react poorly to it. If…

And once again you try to derail the discussion. I'm done, thanks.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Males have the "privilege" of being the "stronger" sex. If you're not collected and emotionally unreactive you are abnormal/weak. Any emotional expression that deviates from a narrow acceptable range is abnormal. You do not need the same reaching out or emotional support of the "weaker" sex because you are strong. It's no wonder males have the privilege of being more likely to be isolated. Have the privilege of being…

That's my point. When is the last time you read an article about leveling the field of female privilege? In theory the idea of privilege is inclusive but in practice it's not. Actually, there are quite a lot of people who seek true equity. Google "kyriarchy" and you'll find a lot of these discussions. However, the reason you won't find many articles like you want is that a) the historical gender bias is undeniably pr…

The reason you won't find many articles is because the male perspective has been marginalized from gender studies. The generic argument being "the male perspective dominates all other domains so there is no need for a mens studies".

>the historical gender bias is undeniably pro-male, so people have focused on the bigger problem

You're comparing apples to oranges. What's worse having a 5-15% risk of sexual assault or having 15% of your gender die like Soviet men in WWII? Trying to turn this into a pissing contest isn't a logically valid way to approach this topic. Both genders face hazards that are qualitatively unrankable.

Post reply on HN