Nerds and Male Privilege • Hacker News Board

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#81

Post by burgerbrain » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:00 AM UTC

wanorris wrote: post #60

da_dude4242 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some of us, however, remember the torment, the humiliation, the violence, the scorn and the ostracism of finding science, electronics, and computers fascinating. There was, indeed, such a time. Many nerds who endured poor treatment at the hands of their peers developed deep emotional traumas that, to this day, exist to some extent or another. One of these traumas is borne of the experience of being not merely reject…

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

Hmm, there are a few things on that list that don't seem to ring true, or at least seem to be leaving out large portions of the picture.

For example:

"41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer."

The last issue of Playboy that I have seen had more topless men in it than women. Perhaps the author is better at visually tuning out advertisements than I. Of course the same is true of the last... dozen? action movies I've seen.

And then there are the issues of reproductive/child rearing rights, which are currently heavily skewed against men. A woman who has unprotected sex (or for that matter sometimes protected sex) is in a much better position than a man who does the same. In fact, in nearly anything concerning children in the slightest men are decidedly discriminated against.

What is my point here? Real life is more complicated than a list or two might suggest.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#82

Post by da_dude4242 » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:01 AM UTC

wanorris wrote: post #60

da_dude4242 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some of us, however, remember the torment, the humiliation, the violence, the scorn and the ostracism of finding science, electronics, and computers fascinating. There was, indeed, such a time. Many nerds who endured poor treatment at the hands of their peers developed deep emotional traumas that, to this day, exist to some extent or another. One of these traumas is borne of the experience of being not merely reject…

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

Males have the "privilege" of being the "stronger" sex. If you're not collected and emotionally unreactive you are abnormal/weak. Any emotional expression that deviates from a narrow acceptable range is abnormal. You do not need the same reaching out or emotional support of the "weaker" sex because you are strong. It's no wonder males have the privilege of being more likely to be isolated. Have the privilege of being 5 times more likely succesfully commit suicide. Being 10 times more likely to die on the job. Our "strength" gives us the privilege to be drafted into wars and be generally disposable to the hazards of society. None of this captured by your list though so I suppose it's irrelevant.

"Weakness" in females signals a socialized response to reach out and support. "Weakness" in males signals a socialized response to stigmatize. Because after all you are privileged, why don't you just "man-up"?

"Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the idea that geeks have male privilege does not exclude the possibility that there is another form of privilege that they lack that others have."

That's my point. When is the last time you read an article about leveling the field of female privilege? In theory the idea of privilege is inclusive but in practice it's not.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#83

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:09 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #57

doktrin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first, I enjoyed the article. However, I lost all respect for the author after reading some of his responses in the discussion thread. One post of his in particular caught my eye : "...And the first thing you did when confronted with this topic was to defend, counter, argue, and resist. And by doing so, you immediately lost based on the rules set forth by the article..." The notion that an argument cannot be refut…

Probably the worst feature of modern feminism is the idea that any and all disagreement with modern feminism is sexism and thus deserves no consideration or response.

[deleted]

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#84

Post by wanorris » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:29 AM UTC

da_dude4242 wrote: post #82

wanorris wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

Males have the "privilege" of being the "stronger" sex. If you're not collected and emotionally unreactive you are abnormal/weak. Any emotional expression that deviates from a narrow acceptable range is abnormal. You do not need the same reaching out or emotional support of the "weaker" sex because you are strong. It's no wonder males have the privilege of being more likely to be isolated. Have the privilege of being…

> None of this captured by your list though so I suppose it's irrelevant.

They're not on a male privilege checklist. A catalog of gender differences would be a different list.

> When is the last time you read an article about leveling the field of female privilege? In theory the idea of privilege is inclusive but in practice it's not.

I think most feminists would discount the idea of "female privilege" per se as a false equivalence similar to a hypothetical "black privilege".

> "Weakness" in females signals a socialized response to reach out and support. "Weakness" in males signals a socialized response to stigmatize.

The fact that there is a societal preference toward masculinity, which underlies many of your points, is definitely a topic that gets brought up in feminist/gender studies circles. This is why it's comparatively okay for women to be tomboys and such, and highly frowned upon for men to be effeminate or show what are considered feminine traits.

Many feminists call this general societal enforcement of gender roles part of patriarchy, and seek to remove the stigma associated with violating these roles. So if that's something you're interested in, there's no reason you can't find common cause.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#85

Post by pyre » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:30 AM UTC

wanorris wrote: post #55

Shenglong wrote: post #29

[warning: slightly offensive] I really would hope, that women in video games are in fact judged by how attractive they are. I certainly wouldn't want an obese woman superhero saving the world, just as I'm sure the gay males and the straight women wouldn't want to see a tub of lard (excuse my language) in a male, who is supposed to epitomize the superhuman virtues that we lack. Yeah, it's shit easy to wave a finger an…

> Give most gaming girls a choice, and they will CHOOSE to dress their characters in slutty--or as they call it, "sexy cute"--clothing. I think there's a subtle point being lost here. Female characters designed to appeal to women look different than female characters designed to appeal to men. For example, if the characters are designed to appeal to women, you can pretty much guarantee that they will not look like th…

To be fair, IIRC the 'hunky guy' that was well-built/muscled was popular with women in the '80s (so far as I know, feel free to correct me). And I do know at least one woman that is into that archetype.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#86

Post by sciurus » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:38 AM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #49

Is there a term for the ridiculous rhetorical tactic of insisting that any attempt to refute one's claims as being illogical is itself only further proof of the claims made? I stopped reading when he said this: "I will pause now for the traditional arguments from my readers...Got all of that out of your systems? Good. Because that reaction is exactly what I'm talking about." Why bother having a discussion with someon…

I think the author has a good point, although it's tricky to make: You can spend all day making excuses for specific instances of sexism in comics and video games, or you can realize that your ability and need to do that is a sign of a problem.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#87

Post by bitops » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:46 AM UTC

davidhansen wrote: post #28

I'm not sure why the author of this article somehow thinks that geeks deny the existence of sexism in geek culture. The reality is that it's widely known and accepted. If the author wants to find something to rail against, he should have chosen the fact that everybody knows, but nobody cares . I'm not going to defend the treatment of women in geek culture, as much of it is indefensible. but it seems that few people b…

[The "you" below is not personal.]

> The result of this kind of upbringing is often a socially stunted man who, despite all his powers of logic and reason, finds it difficult to reason away the anger that he knows shouldn't be there, but is. He witnesses sexism and mistreatment of women around him, but he lacks the empathy required to say or do anything about it.

Boo the fuck hoo. If guys weren't so hung up on trying to explain everything rationally, they might experience empathy without trying very hard. Most guys out there who want to "be sensitive" are putting on a nice liberal face so that they appear to have the right opinion.

I'm a guy, and can state from experience, that most guys are more concerned with being right and looking good than being empathic and in touch with their feelings. The issue is that with empathy comes understanding, and so you might see what a jerk you are sometimes.

Consequently, we're way too hung up on pride and being the alpha. Until guys can take a step back and admit that they might not have all the answers all the time, the thoughts, attitudes and opinions stated in the article will not go away.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#88

Post by waqf » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:49 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #81

wanorris wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

Hmm, there are a few things on that list that don't seem to ring true, or at least seem to be leaving out large portions of the picture. For example: "41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer." The last issue of Playboy that I…

Right, and

"22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex."

Supposing you are caught speeding down the freeway at 110mph on Saturday night. What sex is everyone going to expect you to be?

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#89

Post by Anechoic » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:51 AM UTC

da_dude4242 wrote: post #82

wanorris wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

Males have the "privilege" of being the "stronger" sex. If you're not collected and emotionally unreactive you are abnormal/weak. Any emotional expression that deviates from a narrow acceptable range is abnormal. You do not need the same reaching out or emotional support of the "weaker" sex because you are strong. It's no wonder males have the privilege of being more likely to be isolated. Have the privilege of being…

> Our "strength" gives us the privilege to be drafted into wars and be generally disposable to the hazards of society.

This isn't an example of privilege, it's patronization - it was a male-dominated society who declared that women weren't fit/suitable for war (and other occupations) and therefore should be protected from the horrors of war. Until recently it was men who wanted to keep women out of combat roles (now the split is about even, with the majority supporting combat roles for women).

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#90

Post by AndyKelley » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:52 AM UTC

One thing to note is that it only takes one obnoxious person to ruin it for all the other well-informed and well-behaved people in any given room/server, because good behavior, by definition, does not draw attention to itself.