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The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

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Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#131

Post by hellfish »

ldldldo wrote: post #79
giraffe_lady wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely don't think it's compatible with contemporary western morality that holds that actions are either valid expressions of self-actualization and so require no apology, or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible. The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how…

This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace. I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has be…

> In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace.

The sjws and Christians show grace in exactly the same way: you earn it by converting.

Middle America also has it's own issues, nihilism, crab mentality (big one), and drug issues (also a coastal problem) are some that come to mind

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#132

Post by hellfish »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #16

Whoever figures out a secular distillation of the concept of grace is going to be very, very successful in community-building. The lack of it is painfully apparent, and it offers something to both the accused and the accusers. Now, whether people actually want that from others in these cases, or are merely enjoying the use of power a little too much, is another discussion.

This reply will probably get downvoted, but grace has inherent issues.

Actual grace in Christianity involves becoming a believer, no? That comes with its own set of obligations. Combine this with a culture that jumps at the opportunity to capitalize off of people's misery and you have a recipe for self destruction. Look at the pharma companies poisoning this country with opiates if you want an example

Grace requires a level of trust that isn't possible in the current economic configuration

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#133

Post by hellfish »

user3939382 wrote: post #84
ldldldo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace. I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has be…

> everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic Yup. The new thing is that we’re too smart and cool for all the things religion teaches, while we scratch our heads trying to solve all the problems it gives you the solution for.

Sometimes the illness is better than the cure

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#134

Post by tetris11 »

jancsika wrote: post #113
tsylba wrote: post #80

Once a media is accepted and known by the multitude it becomes performative, a spectacle where authenticity vanished preempted by new social rules. Beaudrillard's hyperreality describes the situation where we don't live in reality anymore but in the image of the reality we build, akin to an AI learning from data generated by another AI. It seems our current internet culture - heavily centralized, and universally used…

"Authenticity" here is so poorly defined I'm afraid it could conceivably end up `rm -rf`ing my entire hard disk.

A web of trust where each node is not motivated to maximise their connections to other nodes, but stay relatively constant over time.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#135

Post by inglor_cz »

eastbound wrote: post #117
inglor_cz wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if a descent to full-blown Soviet "Vranyo" (brazen lying) can be prevented. As in: "They lie to us, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them." Pretty much the only brake pad on that machine is that capitalism actually requires at least some efficiency from the players, and a web of lies like that will destroy any institution. Bu…

I often compare science environments to general environments. In science, if you’re wrong, there’s no pardon: Your rocket doesn’t land on the moon, so you gotta keep your speech clear, your expertise precise, and your reputation perfect. In speech environments, if you’re handwaving it and are dishonest, you win the market. Science environments are better suited for me, but I get bashed in general environments…

There is science and science.

Rocket science is notoriously unforgiving. Nutrition science is pretty much the opposite, a half-hearted attempt to make sense of "garbage in, garbage out".

The difference is in, among others, loopback length. If something goes wrong during a rocket launch, the fireball is only seconds away. Not so much in food and health, where the consequences take decades and multiple causal factors are hard to disentangle.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#136

Post by Genbox »

tsylba wrote: post #80

Once a media is accepted and known by the multitude it becomes performative, a spectacle where authenticity vanished preempted by new social rules. Beaudrillard's hyperreality describes the situation where we don't live in reality anymore but in the image of the reality we build, akin to an AI learning from data generated by another AI. It seems our current internet culture - heavily centralized, and universally used…

Eloquently described. News websites I used to frequent have become echo chambers with little tolerance for opposing perspectives. The willingness to discuss becomes a thing of the past and the term 'facts' has been twisted so much that it now means 'your opinion'.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#137

Post by GuB-42 »

Speaking of apologies, one of the best is from Octave from OVH when one of their datacenters caught fire, with the consequences you can imagine for customers who rented servers there.

It has a short "I apologize" introduction, the rest is technical details about the situation, what is being done to resolve it, and giving credits to employees who are dealing with the problem. What I find appreciable is that Octave is not talking about his own person, he talks as the representative and leader of a company.

The video: https://www.ovh.com/fr/images/sbg/index-en.html

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#138

Post by mattgreenrocks »

user3939382 wrote: post #116
unethical_ban wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my intense aversion to Christianity originates from knowing only those people who take the Bible literally and have true faith in the stories that are told. Hell actually exists, gay people go there, divorce is fine though, oh don't worry about that line, etc. It's all very pick and choose. I think I would have had much more interest in faith/religion if they acknowledged the myth component of their stories,…

IMHO faith can only exist and have meaning (including to God) when juxtaposed with doubt. If God manifested in Times Square as a 2,000 foot glowing being, would admitting your belief in His existence mean anything? If any theist says they have no doubt, I’d first say they’re possibly lying, maybe to themselves.

It feels taboo to say, but doubt is probably critical for the formation of an authentic faith. Kierkegaard calls it a leap of faith for a reason, after all. I posit that some are able to believe with minimal doubt, but circumstances will eventually force the issue.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#139

Post by unity1001 »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #109
unity1001 wrote: post #108

Performative remorse of those responsible and forgiveness of them without the responsible having to do anything to remedy their deeds are killing the American society. People can do all kinds of evil deeds and misconduct, break their own principles and rules, and they say that they are sorry, and its all 'okay'.

sounds like something far more structural is at play in that case

Indeed. The ghost of the puritan christianity still seems to be plaguing the American society: 'Hard work' is still valued like how puritens valued it, and those who do not 'work hard' are seen as worthless. Which means that the poor, the homeless etc are all sinners and can be ignored. The religious behavior set continues in public discourse as well, with religious mentality of Christianity which teaches that Christians can do no wrong and all those who are not from their own flock are evil. Which is applied to their society and its affairs: The US is 'great' or at the worst, 'okay' even as the society crumbles, and all the targeted enemies of the US are 'horrible evildoers'. When the US does something, its 'okay', but when others do the same thing, its an 'atrocity' etc.

In short, its likely the ghost of puriten christianity and its practice of exceptionalism that elevates itself whereas demeans, smears and makes enemies of all others by projecting all the evils to them.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#140

Post by wahnfrieden »

unity1001 wrote: post #139
wahnfrieden wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sounds like something far more structural is at play in that case

Indeed. The ghost of the puritan christianity still seems to be plaguing the American society: 'Hard work' is still valued like how puritens valued it, and those who do not 'work hard' are seen as worthless. Which means that the poor, the homeless etc are all sinners and can be ignored. The religious behavior set continues in public discourse as well, with religious mentality of Christianity which teaches that Christ…

Or just capitalism
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