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The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

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Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#101

Post by WalterBright »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #91
ldldldo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace. I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has be…

I mean I have been a christian all my life, and I am also unambiguously very far to the left explicitly because that is the only way I can see to truly act within my religious beliefs in the world right now. So I'm not sure how far this framework can get you, really. I certainly don't find it to have much explanatory power on any of these issues. I also think it could be rephrased in a way that would make it easy to…

> that is the only way I can see to truly act within my religious beliefs

I've been unable to find in the Bible the phrase that says "take from bob and give it to bill and you will be righteous".

My interpretation of the Bible is that Jesus encouraged people to freely give of their own to help others.

I'm genuinely curious where your leftist views derive from Christian principles.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#102

Post by anigbrowl »

ldldldo wrote: post #79
giraffe_lady wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely don't think it's compatible with contemporary western morality that holds that actions are either valid expressions of self-actualization and so require no apology, or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible. The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how…

This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace. I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has be…

It'd be great if these paragons of grace would have a serious chat with the 'fuck your feelings' crowd about their death threat fetish, since they are nominally all in the same big tent.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#103

Post by WalterBright »

nmz wrote: post #64
washadjeffmad wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies don't necessarily imply wrongdoing. An apology can be issued to acknowledge inconvenience or understanding, or to indicate someone is being heard. You can apologize for not changing or for disagreeing.

Example: "I'm sorry to say this but" ... Means you acknowledge the hurt saying something will cause but you still need to say it. because it needs to be said.

I don't mean to be rude, but a friend of mine used to begin a criticism with "I don't mean to be rude, but ...". He did it so much it became a meme in the office, and people would laugh whenever he opened with that.

He finally stopped :-)

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#104

Post by anigbrowl »

nmz wrote: post #64
washadjeffmad wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies don't necessarily imply wrongdoing. An apology can be issued to acknowledge inconvenience or understanding, or to indicate someone is being heard. You can apologize for not changing or for disagreeing.

Example: "I'm sorry to say this but" ... Means you acknowledge the hurt saying something will cause but you still need to say it. because it needs to be said.

If something truly 'needs to be said', the sayer believes it has greater value for the hearer than not saying it, eg 'I'm sorry to say this but I don't want to drink with you any more because you're an alcoholic.' The non-apology the other poster is talking about is professing to be sorry about something while having no intention of remediating or changing the offensive behavior.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#105

Post by abeppu »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #53
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #16

Whoever figures out a secular distillation of the concept of grace is going to be very, very successful in community-building. The lack of it is painfully apparent, and it offers something to both the accused and the accusers. Now, whether people actually want that from others in these cases, or are merely enjoying the use of power a little too much, is another discussion.

I genuinely don't think it's compatible with contemporary western morality that holds that actions are either valid expressions of self-actualization and so require no apology, or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible. The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how…

> or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible.

Is that really a thing people believe? I don't think that's actually true. B/c people know they fuck up, and they will ask the people around them for forgiveness, and they think they can deserve it. And when someone who actually matters in our lives does something wrong, we can sometimes forgive them.

I think the problem is:

- the most highly visible cases are often public figures who did something wrong for a long time and only expressed when they were caught or caught and publicly shamed. It's hard to believe these people are sincere when they repent.

- the public performance of unforgiveness has itself become an opportunity for virtue signaling.

- the most sincere apologies are for these reasons given and received out of the public eye, and I think we then don't see the real response modeled very often.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#106

Post by anigbrowl »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #8

Insincerity should be the expected outcome from bullying people via socioeconomic pressure into making public apologies. Forcing someone to make a public statement via explicit or implicit threat of loss of income or ostracization is playground politics for adults.

When I do it to you it's free speech, when you do it to me it's bullying.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#107

Post by peoplefromibiza »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #81
nmz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example: "I'm sorry to say this but" ... Means you acknowledge the hurt saying something will cause but you still need to say it. because it needs to be said.

No it means you pretend to apologise but are really talking more shit. Everyone knows the part before the "but" is passive aggressive window dressing and means nothing.

That's a very unusual reaction to something that simply reflects good manners.

"I'm sorry to say this" is just a polite way to express real displeasure for the fact that people sometimes have strong opinions, but they can be wrong at the same time, but in some cases they get easily offended when more knowledgeable people or simply more thoughtful people point it out.

So starting by saying sorry does not refer to the person they are answering to specifically, but to the larger aufince that is listening, because they'll have to hear something that is probably obvious to the majority, but not to that particular very wrong and aggressive person

Simply because they are trying to be polite.

Also.

The part before "but" counts as much as everything else, or the English language would not contain the word "but".

I'm sorry yo say this, but quoting GOT it's not deep.

An apology doesn't mean you did something wrong, many times it means you're doing something that did not want to do, but need to do and it's gonna hurt someone.

I'm sorry sir, but your parking is expired, I have to give you a ticket.

Apologizing on a social network to your 4 million followed because you have a vegan channel but in reality you are not vegan, have no intentions to become one and also find them pathetic, it's not an apology, it's damage control and trying to control the narrative, there's no space for real feelings at that point.

Real apologies are between people who know each other and love each other and do not want to lose each other over their ego.

So in conclusion most of the time apologies are a formalism, an ice breaker "sorry, what's your name again?" you are not really sorry. You just don't rember who that person is, but sorry works better than "hey you insignificant NPC my boss said I had to do this thing, but I don't care and I will forget your name in... what's your name again?"

Finally, I'm also sorry to say this, but the article is a puff piece for wanna be PR of the rich and famous and the authors should apologize for it.

The only time you should ask yourself "is this a good apology?" is when you are writing one for someone else.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#108

Post by unity1001 »

Performative remorse of those responsible and forgiveness of them without the responsible having to do anything to remedy their deeds are killing the American society. People can do all kinds of evil deeds and misconduct, break their own principles and rules, and they say that they are sorry, and its all 'okay'.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#109

Post by wahnfrieden »

unity1001 wrote: post #108

Performative remorse of those responsible and forgiveness of them without the responsible having to do anything to remedy their deeds are killing the American society. People can do all kinds of evil deeds and misconduct, break their own principles and rules, and they say that they are sorry, and its all 'okay'.

sounds like something far more structural is at play in that case

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#110

Post by unethical_ban »

user3939382 wrote: post #84
ldldldo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace. I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has be…

> everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic Yup. The new thing is that we’re too smart and cool for all the things religion teaches, while we scratch our heads trying to solve all the problems it gives you the solution for.

I think my intense aversion to Christianity originates from knowing only those people who take the Bible literally and have true faith in the stories that are told. Hell actually exists, gay people go there, divorce is fine though, oh don't worry about that line, etc. It's all very pick and choose.

I think I would have had much more interest in faith/religion if they acknowledged the myth component of their stories, and acknowledged the utility of abiding by the framework nonetheless.

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