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$477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

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221–230 of 243 posts

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just dodging the key question. Obviously the government has some rationale other than that they're taking it because they can. The problem is that they're still taking money that's owned by someone else, even if it's controlled by SBF. I'm sure there are strong international norms if not laws against a sovereign power directing a foreign financial actor to repay some sort of debt by pilfering client deposits,…

I suspect that if you deposit 100 ETH at FTX, legally, you no longer own the 100 ETH. Instead, you own an IOU from FTX stating that FTX owes you 100 ETH. FTX owns the ETH. In an ideal world, an IOU from FTX for the amount of 100 ETH would be worth 100 ETH. Unfortunately, FTX is insolvent and bankrupt. The only thing the bankruptcy court can do is divide up FTX’s assets and distribute whatever FTX does have to their c…

(up to a specific limit)

Historically that limit has always been waived during bank collapses, although my inability to remember a specific historical counterexample does not disprove its existence.

edited to add the limit still exists on the books for marketing purposes, in a weird turn of events unregulated non-banks liked to market that they're "as trustworthy as a bank" because they bought a bond policy for the FDIC limit so feel free to write them a check for less than the FDIC limit because they're bonded. The unregulated industries would get REALLY mad if the FDIC limit were doubled legally because then they'd have to pay about twice as much to get their bond. Then the FTC got real mad and I don't recall the outcome of that story although I don't see many references to the FDIC anymore in marketing material from unregulated companies, so that must not have gone well. This all went down in, like, the 80s not like last week or whatever.

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear if Bad Guys want money and you tell them something like, "you can't get it, it's on multisig wallets with geographically distributed individuals in control", that's still a You problem and you've only bought yourself a little time before they come back to collect, and/or break your legs if they can't collect. I may have to file this one under, "everyone wants to be a gangster until it's time to do gangster thi…

At that point you are at "People want money you don't have and are willing to break your legs". No relation to crypto or even who you are anymore.

Unfortunately, if you owe bad guys money, they'll want it, no matter the excuse you give them.

>No relation to crypto or even who you are anymore.

The relation with crypto is that crypto doesn't solve this problem either.

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#223
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming SBF is a rational agent, which if he was, he wouldn't be in this position.

He’s rational, he’s just using a different set of ethics. In the Vox interview he says he’s trying to win a jurisdictional battle with Delaware, this just part of that fight.

Something I've been thinking about WRT SBF and online ethics, is if someone's true devotion is to preserving shareholder value, etc, if you know "interesting things" have happened and been covered up for a long time, lying on twitter to people who mostly are uninvolved and don't care, might be seen as a legal obligation, not a character flaw.

He had an "out" which was the companies business model was to purchase regulations from politicians intended to put all his competitors out of business, that process seemed to be going VERY well, and if he could have held out another half year, maybe two years... he likely would have been very successful. So he is legally obligated as an officer of his company to lie on twitter to keep the charade running long enough to pay off for the investors.

Certainly his investors would have made more money if he hadn't gotten caught than how it turned out, and being a criminal organization he can't be honest about that on Twitter.

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTX Trading Ltd. has a bunch of legal entities on the Bahamas. As shown in the latest Delaware court fillings. The Bahamas have at least jurisdiction over those legal entities and their assets. That FTX as a whole was unable, and/or unwilling, to keep proper track of accounts, cash and assets across their overly complicated corporate structure is hardly the Bahamas fault.

OK, yes, there are Bahamian entities over which Bahamian authorities likely have jurisdiction. But given what you say with regards to the complexity of FTX's corporate structure, it's likely difficult to determine that the assets that were transferred to Bahamian authorities actually belong to those Bahamian entities. Maybe it's better that these assets are in the hands of Bahamian authorities, but it is highly quest…

Indeed - which is probably why the attorneys of the Delaware proceedings have applied to combine both cases.

Apparently, there is a court hearing scheduled for monday about that motion. I imagine the status of the seized funds will be one of the main topics of that hearing.

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#225
post #223
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s rational, he’s just using a different set of ethics. In the Vox interview he says he’s trying to win a jurisdictional battle with Delaware, this just part of that fight.

Something I've been thinking about WRT SBF and online ethics, is if someone's true devotion is to preserving shareholder value, etc, if you know "interesting things" have happened and been covered up for a long time, lying on twitter to people who mostly are uninvolved and don't care, might be seen as a legal obligation, not a character flaw. He had an "out" which was the companies business model was to purchase regu…

There is no reason to believe FTX was going to succeed via regulatory capture. SBF wasn’t a rational thinker. The establishment sucks but it doesn’t mean SBF was competent and had a realistic out. He didn’t. He is an out of control sociopath.

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#226
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did SBF ever say it was a hack? I only saw admins on telegram call it a hack and ftx's US general counsel say it was a hack[1]. [1] second paragraph here: https://www.wired.com/story/ftx-hack-theft-crypto-tracing/

He did. He directly said it was a hack in an interview with Vox. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23462333/sam-bankman-frie...

oh, missed that. thanks

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#227
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bahamian government is seizing assets "to protect the interests of clients or customers".

That's just dodging the key question. Obviously the government has some rationale other than that they're taking it because they can. The problem is that they're still taking money that's owned by someone else, even if it's controlled by SBF. I'm sure there are strong international norms if not laws against a sovereign power directing a foreign financial actor to repay some sort of debt by pilfering client deposits,…

The seizure is supposedly about the assets of FTX Digital Markets, which is incorporated in the Bahamas, so no foreign actor here from the Bahamian government's POV. Of course which one of that maze of shell companies is actually owning the assets on probably a question will have to be decided by the courts.

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says right in the article SBF did it himself because the government asked him to after declaring bankruptcy.

The article seems to hint that the Delaware bankruptcy case might be complicated by the Bahamian regulator's New York bankruptcy case. It looks like they're implying collusion beteen SBF and the Bahamian regulator.

(sorry, replying to self)

I have to say I find the idea of a "Bahamian regulator" amusing, or at least ironic. People don't put their wealth and companies in the Bahamas because of their reputation for excellent regulation.

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point you are at "People want money you don't have and are willing to break your legs". No relation to crypto or even who you are anymore.

Unfortunately, if you owe bad guys money, they'll want it, no matter the excuse you give them. >No relation to crypto or even who you are anymore. The relation with crypto is that crypto doesn't solve this problem either.

It solves the problem, that the money is protected (in the same way that I assume something like "manual multisig", which I assume exists, solves the problem in traditional banking).

Nothing can solve the problem of protecting you from "bad men" who want to hurt you and don’t care about anything else.

Re: $477M FTX ‘hack’ was a Bahamian government asset seizure

#230
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If I ever ask you for the key over the phone, play along and send me random bits and feign ignorance to my further requests"

What's your endgame here? Stay in jail with the satisfaction of knowing that the government didn't take the $500M and nobody can access them anymore?

it's just how I'm picturing this scheme could work, not necessarily in FTX scenario
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