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The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

thecgo.org

71–80 of 108 posts

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey now.. are you saying they got kicked out from ? Because that would put us halfway there. I would still disagree with you on a host of other issues, but at least you would admit your initial statement was not accurate ( paraphrased as 'they left to form their own communities'). Also, who made you the authority of who gets to be toxic and who is not? I find you toxic. Do I get to ban you? I don't like your fringe t…

> Do I really need to spell out why it is a really, really bad idea to go down the rabbit hole you suggest? You should! Where does the rabbit hole of "platforms get to choose what they ban" lead us? Are you suggesting that a YouTube channel is a human right now? > You don't believe me? Look at Biden's laptop saga Here's the problem: your thesis assumes that these groups are acting in good faith. They are not. The GOP…

My friend.

You have learned nothing. No. Worse than nothing. You have learned the wrong lesson and you will clearly repeat it again so allow me to spell it out for you. You somehow managed to learn that after you survive a Streisand effect, you clearly did not CLAMP down hard enough. You managed not to learn that it is a proper response to NOT encourage another such effect in the form of another round of censorship of public opinions, but to somehow double down on. Scratch that! Triple down!

And note that now the environment has really changed and people are actually paying attention to some of this. Do you really think censorship approach is the right approach?

It literally does not matter. The action banning a piece of news MADE IT CREDIBLE in the eyes of the public. Whether Republicans released in good faith is meaningless here. Why is it so hard to understand? The public believed it, to an extent supported some candidates based on those and will now actively demand Biden's impeachment. This choice made it happen! Your advocated choice made it happen. Can you see what I am showing you? I simple cause and effect. And multiple ripples.

So what? Ever since Clinton impeachment meant nothing and became a political tool just like anything else. I will even let you on a little secret. Biden will be impeached too. It is pure luck ( just like Trump's ) that it won't get past senate. The only time it would matter is IF the president is removed from power. That is it. But now.. they have a reason for impeachment that a good portion of the population may actually side with ( and people were kinda split over Trump's impeachment ). So again, and I am beating a dead horse for a reason, great job making that laptop thing credible! This combined with Rs ability to actually make people dislike their targets ( Hillary comes to mind ) will be a wild spectacle.

You sure as fuck should not treat it like it should be automatically removed from everywhere making it instantly credible.

Why would they? They were right to bet on it! Not to mention, your endorsed approach surely did not help. They actually managed to monetize this! It is god damn impressive. And that is before we even get to the actual content of the thing, which will be a lot of fun for US population to watch. Can you imagine, crack addict in the white house bait articles already? That Chapelle was a prophet.

I will tell you a little story from the old country. A really short one. Actually, it is not even a story. It is a saying. It goes: Don't touch shit for you may smear yourself.

All you had to do is nothing and it would have died on its own. But nope. Gotta intervene. Gotta tell people what they can think, what they can and cannot see for I AM THE ARBITER TRUTH. I don't think I exaggerate that much, but this is my impression of people on Twitter trying to make a decision on it.

You don't have to disseminate shit, but the moment you stop others from doing it you are feeding the very thing you purport to fight.

Strawman, but I will bite anyway, but you raised an interesting point.

I am suggesting that at certain point, you can't effectively be a global square and claim not be one at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive states. You do not get to be a planet and claim you have no gravitational pull for purposes of physics. Which is basically the entire reason 230 comes into this discussion at all ( companies wanting to have two mutually exclusive states, which is one of the reasons for the mess we are in ).

Listen, if it was up to me ( say I am the emperor of the Earth ), social media would not exist. Period. They are clearly more hassle than they are worth. But since I am kinda not in a position of the supreme overlord, I would like to maybe just cut them to size just a little bit ( you know.. post clear rules of what is allowed and what is not..stuff like that.. none of that vague 'hate speech' ). Failing that. I am ok with guaranteed access.

The platforms that are the size and reach of nation-states ( scratch that, globe ) can silence you at will. Today, it is a ban flat earth believers. Tomorrow, we are going to ban 88 so as not to offend China ( and simultaneously strike a blow against nazi sympathizers -- huzzah ). Day after that, we are going to ban 77, because 4chan and 8kun got together and figured out a way that to pass some obscenity filter is to say 'Canadian' instead of 'Boomer' ( which just became a slur ). You cannot win this arms race. You just can't.

And all this is before we get the final point. You. The rabbit hole always leads down to "you" or a person with zero self-preservation instinct. You think the tool in front of you will not touch you for you are the righteous, of the right mind ( and/or have 'gott mit uns' on your insignia ), but, well, things and mores change. Not that many decades ago gays were thought to be mentally ill. My not so subtle point is that what was kosher today, may not be kosher in the future. If I were you, I would think several times before I was ready to support 'ban everything foundation for it is the sovereign right of a platform to act as it pleaseath'.

Yes, you are a clean model citizen today. Tomorrow, we shall see, won't we. Oh, your face will be so red then.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is that complicated. Either private groups can exist or they can't. Either I can choose my audience or I can't. Either I can say "No women." or I can't. In other words, internet becomes a set of private clubs or not. Horrible people exist whether we are aware of them or not. If delineation is clear, enforceable it could work. It would destroy current social media. And that.. is not something I am amb…

This is not really correct. I can create a private group that excludes people who wear purple, because purple wearing is not a protected class under law. I can do the same for people who program in APL, or who have ever ridden a tricycle, or listen to "Freebird". However, I cannot create a private group that excludes on the basis of any protected status (e.g. sex, religion, ethnicity, age).

I beg to differ. There are private groups in existence right now, who are excluding protected classes and everyone is perfectly fine with it ( sex ). I don't even have to troll 4chan. They are right there in the open[1]

Unless that kind of double standard is ok.

[1]https://verilymag.com/2020/08/women-only-find-your-tribe-gir...

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We mocked, ostracized, and argued them out of common spaces until they created their own. They weren't pushed out, they walked out because their views weren't accepted. That's the problem with this line of thinking: people will only stick around if you're willing to accept their beliefs as reasonable to some extent. But nobody accepts that for ideas like Flat Earth or white supremacy, so they formed their own commu…

> If you try to "keep them around", then you have to say that these are reasonable ideas. There is a giant middle ground between mocking an idea and accepting that it's reasonable, which you are ignoring.

Something like "your ideas are completely wrong, but we won't mock you for them"?

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#74
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, free speech isn't just about keeping violence from search of truth it's about tolerating what you consider untruth. Rationalist philosophers that invented the concept were censored, excommunicated and their works were burned, would you say their censors were just expressing their own free speech?

"Burning their works" sure sounds like violence.

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Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do I really need to spell out why it is a really, really bad idea to go down the rabbit hole you suggest? You should! Where does the rabbit hole of "platforms get to choose what they ban" lead us? Are you suggesting that a YouTube channel is a human right now? > You don't believe me? Look at Biden's laptop saga Here's the problem: your thesis assumes that these groups are acting in good faith. They are not. The GOP…

My friend. You have learned nothing. No. Worse than nothing. You have learned the wrong lesson and you will clearly repeat it again so allow me to spell it out for you. You somehow managed to learn that after you survive a Streisand effect, you clearly did not CLAMP down hard enough. You managed not to learn that it is a proper response to NOT encourage another such effect in the form of another round of censorship o…

> The action banning a piece of news MADE IT CREDIBLE in the eyes of the public.

No. If that worked, necrophilia would be credible in the eyes of the public. It's banned so completely it isn't even mentioned except as an extreme fetish for people who are, presumably, mentally ill in the eyes of the mainstream. Banning necrophilia does nothing for it: It only finds purchase among a tiny few, the ones predisposed to go for it. Idiocies like the imaginary laptop are similar: Only those predisposed to fall for such fallacies are swayed, as proven by Republicans losing elections of late.

Besides, the people who support the DON'T SAY GAY bill certainly think banning discussion of a thing makes it go away entirely. Reality refutes them.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#76

Yep, Section 230 is built to protect big tech platforms. Unsurprisingly, everyone who writes articles claiming otherwise has a financial influence from a large tech firm. A lot of the extremism, radical political shifts, and domestic terrorism can be placed squarely on 230 and it's defenders. Big tech platforms aren't worth this much damage.

But without it, you can't even safely run your own local server, if you allow others to post there. It protects HN just as much as it protects Twitter and Facebook.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#77
post #3

> If a user engages in trolling, criminal activity, or abuse, they will be identified and ostracized. Furthermore, they will incur a financial loss, as their reputation will be ruined. Thus content moderation problems are addressed without ill-fitting and abusable corporate or government interventions. I'm sure that won't go wrong or impact certain groups at all. There's a lot of content on the internet today that I…

I googled Robin DiAngelo and expected to read about a far-right Jordan Peterson type. Instead I found that she's the person who created the term "white fragility". From her wiki page, I don't see any reason to compare her to a flat earther

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Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you try to "keep them around", then you have to say that these are reasonable ideas. There is a giant middle ground between mocking an idea and accepting that it's reasonable, which you are ignoring.

Something like "your ideas are completely wrong, but we won't mock you for them"?

Something like: This person gets put in my personal ignore filter, which over time will get better at predicting who and what I want ignored. I can always go back and review what's being ignored and make changes. Individuals and their content can be ignored separately, so "I don't like this topic" doesn't ban someone who I like to engage with on other topics.

I'll also tag this person as a flat-earther so my computer will learn to cluster similar content, so I can query "flat-earther" when I want a chuckle.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#79
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend. You have learned nothing. No. Worse than nothing. You have learned the wrong lesson and you will clearly repeat it again so allow me to spell it out for you. You somehow managed to learn that after you survive a Streisand effect, you clearly did not CLAMP down hard enough. You managed not to learn that it is a proper response to NOT encourage another such effect in the form of another round of censorship o…

> The action banning a piece of news MADE IT CREDIBLE in the eyes of the public. No. If that worked, necrophilia would be credible in the eyes of the public. It's banned so completely it isn't even mentioned except as an extreme fetish for people who are, presumably, mentally ill in the eyes of the mainstream. Banning necrophilia does nothing for it: It only finds purchase among a tiny few, the ones predisposed to go…

It is a non-sequitur. It simply does not follow. If it was intended as an analogy, it fails at several levels.

Still, in the spirit of continuing this conversation, and extending this metaphor I will play along.

Has necrophilia been reported in NY post touting its discovery or its relationship to current WH occupant? Have other publications later confirmed that necrophilia was indeed present[1] and was not limited to just necrophilia[2,3 - note those havens of conservative thought like NYT ] despite initially recoiling from such revelations with horror?

Look, I get that you think you can wave me away by a distraction like a slogan 'don't say gay' and turn it into a political sparring match, but you can't. Gays exist. Laptop exists. Pictures exist. It would appear a crack addict exists. Facts are facts.

Personally, I would strap on man. It is going to be one crazy show. If you want my advice, just enjoy the ride.

Yep. Them crazy republicans losing all them seats in the house and senate barely held by democracts. Such a resounding loss it was. I am sorry but I have to chuckle a little at this statement coming from someone on the internet claiming to describe reality. It is just a little surreal.

[1]https://nypost.com/2022/04/01/new-york-times-finally-admit-h... [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/us/politics/hunter-biden-... [3]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/21/health/addiction-treatmen...

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#80
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assertion is not valid. Your attempt at characterization and framing is misleading. They did not 'walk out'. They were either banned, shadow banned, or w/e current equivalent in a given community of removed is. As a result of said banning, they formed their own communities. Your entire premise is flawed from misrepresentation of that one key element. We are in agreement. Note that the same applies to others. Oth…

Do you have evidence of this? I'm not aware of any major deplatforming of flat earthers. There are still flat earth subreddits. Most people seem to think they're stupid and worthy of ridicule but ultimately not that harmful.

I can't point to specifics, but I do remember a lot of similarly bizarre beliefs on YouTube leading up to 2012, like people trying to prove that the sun is now orbiting north-to-south because we're in the middle of a pole shift. An enormous chunk of that historical record is now lost to all future historians because they said the wrong things when Covid came around.
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