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The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

thecgo.org

41–50 of 108 posts

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#41
post #3

> If a user engages in trolling, criminal activity, or abuse, they will be identified and ostracized. Furthermore, they will incur a financial loss, as their reputation will be ruined. Thus content moderation problems are addressed without ill-fitting and abusable corporate or government interventions. I'm sure that won't go wrong or impact certain groups at all. There's a lot of content on the internet today that I…

> That's how we got flat Earth to get so big. We mocked, ostracized, and argued them out of common spaces until they created their own. I'd rather flat Earthers and DiAngelo followers find their way back to rational society, not out from it forever. How are you going to bring irrational people back to rational society? If someone has signed on to some fantastically unrealistic position and made it a part of their per…

> the only way out is deprogramming.

The non-propaganda word for this is "convincing."

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#42
post #29

I still experience the same Matrix bugs as I did years ago... When you setup a new client, it can take 24h for the content to get decrypted after you verify that client...

Verification is nothing to do with decryption - verification is how you confirm that you're really speaking to the person you think you're speaking to.

What you're describing sounds like a plain old encryption bug, although I'm very surprised you're still hitting it, given encryption in Matrix is pretty stable these days. If you can file a bug on github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues (or element-ios or element-android, depending on what platform you're using) with the full details or reproduction steps, I'll take a look.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#43
I am a big believer in federated platforms, but I feel this article misunderstands them in fundamental ways. Particularly here:

> federated platforms—networking environments enabled by communally—agreed upon standards of computing and norms. These technologies can give users more control over their platform experience.

My server is not governed by any communally-agreed-upon norms, nor does it give users control. It's governed by _my_ norms, period (and users can either agree with me or find a different server). Incidentally these norms coincide well with communal norms because I'm a reasonably "well-adjusted" individual, but there's a reason I whitelist instead of using Fediblock: Fediblock is somebody else's list of servers that they personally find offensive. Looking at the list it seems to coincide well with what I find offensive, but I want to be the sole arbiter of who I give time to, and I think therein lies the real power of federated platforms: communities of consensus grow/split/merge/etc completely organically and in sync with the memetic evolution of the node administrators.

If you believe the earth is flat, go nuts. Or if you don't but you want to share the proof of why they're wrong, you can do that too. Or perhaps you don't want to have them in your life at all. You can have all of these experiences equally well on a federated platform. People can form the communities they want to be in and be responsible for the growth of those communities in ways that are impossible with a corporation calling the shots.

...or a centralized platform in general, regardless of commercialization. A friend and I were discussing the possibility of running a federated platform for our country. It sounded like a cool idea at first, but as I thought about it I realized: there are neo-Nazis in my country. I don't want to engage with them at all. But I do believe that if we ran a national platform that as citizens they would be entitled to participate, however stupid their views. Therefore I abandoned the project. I may believe they're entitled to public services as human beings and citizens, but I don't want to give them a platform to spread their message. As long as my server is governed purely by my personal norms, I can in good conscience refuse service to them with no other justification than I don't want to and it's my server.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am advocating for taking off warning labels. Take it as you will. What are the "warning labels" on believing that the Earth is flat? > It is both fascinating and scary to me that you think presentable ideas require your explicit permission to exist. Not sure where you're getting any of this. You seem to have built up quite a straw man that you are getting really upset about. Here it is put simply: I am under no o…

Your assertion is not valid. Your attempt at characterization and framing is misleading. They did not 'walk out'. They were either banned, shadow banned, or w/e current equivalent in a given community of removed is. As a result of said banning, they formed their own communities. Your entire premise is flawed from misrepresentation of that one key element. We are in agreement. Note that the same applies to others. Oth…

> Others are under no obligation to entertain your beliefs and and yet they have every right to occupy same sphere.

No they don't, full stop. You don't own Twitter, you don't own YouTube, you don't own any of these platforms. Flat Earthers can say whatever the hell they want, but they don't have the "right" to force YouTube to carry their speech.

It is a simple fact that these bans are effective at preventing toxic behavior and fringe conspiracy theories from spreading.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assertion is not valid. Your attempt at characterization and framing is misleading. They did not 'walk out'. They were either banned, shadow banned, or w/e current equivalent in a given community of removed is. As a result of said banning, they formed their own communities. Your entire premise is flawed from misrepresentation of that one key element. We are in agreement. Note that the same applies to others. Oth…

> Others are under no obligation to entertain your beliefs and and yet they have every right to occupy same sphere. No they don't, full stop. You don't own Twitter, you don't own YouTube, you don't own any of these platforms. Flat Earthers can say whatever the hell they want, but they don't have the "right" to force YouTube to carry their speech. It is a simple fact that these bans are effective at preventing toxic b…

Hey now.. are you saying they got kicked out from ?

Because that would put us halfway there.

I would still disagree with you on a host of other issues, but at least you would admit your initial statement was not accurate ( paraphrased as 'they left to form their own communities').

Also, who made you the authority of who gets to be toxic and who is not? I find you toxic. Do I get to ban you? I don't like your fringe theory on 'fringe conspiracy theories spreading' spreading any further..

Do you see how ridiculous it gets and how fast this argument ends up in absurd situation we are currently in? Do I really need to spell out why it is a really, really bad idea to go down the rabbit hole you suggest?

Musk does. Are you ok with with the toxic rules he imposes?

Again, do you really want to go down this rabbit hole?

late edit:

It is, at best, an assertion. You don't believe me? Look at Biden's laptop saga. The downright moronic attempts to shut it down in this panicky fashion only reinforced the belief that it must be true, because it was being clamped down so hard and NOW, partially, thanks to your asserted, proclaimed and clearly enforced wisdom, we get to see at least two year show of House hearings on it. Great Job!

So yeah, so very effective.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#46

I’m don’t understanding the claim of Matrix being decentralised. In the end I host a server and you talk with me. I give you the choice of choosing the authentication. For that I need an account at the authentication provider like Microsoft. So all authenticate with Microsoft. I create a user for them at my server which is still be needed to have the at least the timeline saved. At which point I have decentralisation…

No, you don't need a single authentication provider, you can use more or less what you want/need and there is nothing for it mandatory in the protocol.

What currently is kinda centralized is an identity matching service, but even that is completly optional and will bec replaced by something more federated at some point.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#47
post #3

> If a user engages in trolling, criminal activity, or abuse, they will be identified and ostracized. Furthermore, they will incur a financial loss, as their reputation will be ruined. Thus content moderation problems are addressed without ill-fitting and abusable corporate or government interventions. I'm sure that won't go wrong or impact certain groups at all. There's a lot of content on the internet today that I…

I don't think it is that complicated. Either private groups can exist or they can't. Either I can choose my audience or I can't. Either I can say "No women." or I can't. In other words, internet becomes a set of private clubs or not. Horrible people exist whether we are aware of them or not. If delineation is clear, enforceable it could work. It would destroy current social media. And that.. is not something I am amb…

This is not really correct.

I can create a private group that excludes people who wear purple, because purple wearing is not a protected class under law. I can do the same for people who program in APL, or who have ever ridden a tricycle, or listen to "Freebird".

However, I cannot create a private group that excludes on the basis of any protected status (e.g. sex, religion, ethnicity, age).

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#48
post #29

I still experience the same Matrix bugs as I did years ago... When you setup a new client, it can take 24h for the content to get decrypted after you verify that client...

Verification is nothing to do with decryption - verification is how you confirm that you're really speaking to the person you think you're speaking to. What you're describing sounds like a plain old encryption bug, although I'm very surprised you're still hitting it, given encryption in Matrix is pretty stable these days. If you can file a bug on github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues (or element-ios or element-andr…

Also, there's 3 messages that I keep trying to request encryption key and nothing happens (it's been a week)... I can decrypt older and newer messages from the same user in the same "room" though.

If I can reproduce the bug consistently, I will file a bug report. It happens very often when you signin on a new device.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#49
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We mocked, ostracized, and argued them out of common spaces until they created their own. They weren't pushed out, they walked out because their views weren't accepted. That's the problem with this line of thinking: people will only stick around if you're willing to accept their beliefs as reasonable to some extent. But nobody accepts that for ideas like Flat Earth or white supremacy, so they formed their own commu…

> There's no way around this. Uhm, yes there is. > If you try to "keep them around", then you have to say that these are reasonable ideas. No, you don't. Apologies for the terseness, but there are solutions here. It's a problem of signal-to-noise ratio, not an issue of principles and tolerance. Reddit has done a lot by looking at user behavior , as opposed to content, and it's the best system so far for any public, g…

> No, you don't.

But your actions are doing that. You can say "I think these are unconscionable words" until you're blue in the face, but who are people going to believe, you, the person who lets people say those words, or someone else who bans people who say them?

Part of influencing user behavior is controlling which ideas can be discussed. Subreddits very aggressively do this by, like, having rules about what content can be discussed. More than a banlist of unacceptable topics and ideas, they only allow discussion of very particular topics. You can't post about politics on /r/pets. That is influencing user behavior by influencing content. What it feels acceptable to post (user behavior) is influenced by what you see (content). The two are inseparable. The difference between /r/science and /b/ is what content is allowed, because content creates community.

Re: The decentralized web and the future of Section 230

#50
post #36
post #28

Holy crap is this a stupid backwards article. First and foremost, like so many online, IT HAS NO IDEA WHAT "FREE SPEECH" ACTUALLY IS. > With this success came controversy. Critics of content moderation decisions came to view Section 230 liability protections as a de facto subsidy for censorious platforms to limit public speech or to be less than judicious in limiting speech These "critics" are either ignorant or mali…

No, free speech isn't just about keeping violence from search of truth it's about tolerating what you consider untruth. Rationalist philosophers that invented the concept were censored, excommunicated and their works were burned, would you say their censors were just expressing their own free speech?

"Burning their works" sure sounds like violence.
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