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Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

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Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a direct quote from Murray Rothbard. So that's one at least.

> It's a direct quote from Murray Rothbard. So that's one at least. Ugh. That sounds ugly. Which part is the quote? I assume not the "Well, I personally believe.." part but don't see any quotation marks so hard to tell.

I think they're referring to this from The Ethics of Liberty:

> Applying our theory to parents and children, this means that a parent does not have the right to aggress against his children, but also that the parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights. The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die. The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive. (Again, whether or not a parent has a moral rather than a legally enforceable obligation to keep his child alive is a completely separate question.)

It's a pretty extreme view. However, he points out that parents still have a moral obligation to feed their child, and goes on to argue that removing the legal obligation would actually make things better for children. I think his argument is that bad parents who don't want their child would be able to sell their child to a nice family, and anyone who cares so little for their child that they'd let them starve would probably rather just sell the child.

I'm not a libertarian myself, so I don't agree with this. I'm just summarizing.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#743
post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this logic they should let you drive drunk until you hit someone too. I think doing things in your car that have substantial and easily preventable risk to other people should not be allowed.

> By this logic they should let you drive drunk until you hit someone too. I have said no such thing. The only implication of my position for drunk driving is that the law should not be able to punish you for it if you cause no harm. But that in no way means that, for example, a cop who sees you driving erratically can't pull you over, give you a breathalyzer test, find out that you're too drunk to drive, and lock yo…

I am not sure why a cop pulling you over for driving erratically is any different in principle than a cop pulling you over for traveling at an unsafe speed (again, for the purposes of this example, imagine a truly unsafe speed, not 5 mph over).

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I’m objecting to is the imposition of the “no unsupervised time with your children” rule, which, to my mind, is a punishment just as much as a precaution.

> What I’m objecting to is the imposition of the “no unsupervised time with your children” rule, which, to my mind, is a punishment just as much as a precaution. Which is another way of saying that it is just as much a precaution as it is a punishment. CPS responsibilities are to the children and their safety. The police & courts deal with the parents, collect any evidence, mete out any punishment, etc.

Well then that brings me back to the other point. We could do this with far more suspected crimes. Just to be safe.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of us?

You can't be a decent neighbor if you have no concept of who your neighbors are. You may not be best friends or know their entire life story, but if you can't even recognize them then there is simply no neighborly connection to work with. Without that, they're just people, same as any other found the world over. You can try to be decent to all, but that's not quite the same thing.

OK. Then probably a majority of Americans aren't "decent neighbors" because having no idea who your neighbors are is extremely common.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#746
post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never been outside the US? It's only the US that's like this.

I live in Canada, and that's where my experience comes from. Argument refuted! :P But to be serious: yes, I've been outside of North America. I've been to Hong Kong, South Africa, Australia, and a few other places. None of them are as bad as North America is with this expectation/nigh-on legal requirement of helicopter parenting... but they're all still far worse than what basically-everywhere in the world was like 5…

> to just walk/bike out of the town or city they live in to play and have adventures in the fields and parks and maybe a little bit of thornier wilderness around them, all on their own, for hours at a time. A.K.A. "just be home for dinner."

It sounds like you've never been to Japan. It's exactly like that here.

>I think the countries I've visited have all been Commonwealth or ex-Commonwealth nations. Maybe that's the common factor?

I feel like the Anglophone nations have all been following America's lead in many ways.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#747
post #372

I think is a symptom of a larger problem - that kids today are treated like mindless idiots generally. Adults today seem to increasingly act like kids are unable to do practically anything independently, and worse, they act like they can't be trusted to anything of any importance or with any level of risk. And I'd argue that attuite is having an effect on our children because they also seem to be less independent and…

Hey, as with everything it's worth considering all sides. This exact scenario happened and the result was quite a nasty cut. Now you might say this is an essential part of childhood, but it was pretty bad.

Not sure how I feel about putting kids through it, though. I feel like much worse could have happened. I think he might have needed stitches anyway. What if he needed surgery?

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#748

This is (one of) the logical conclusions of suburban, car-enforced social alienation: if you don't know your neighbors and your neighbors don't know you, then everything that isn't immediately familiar to either party is treated with suspicion. And this holds for the entire "food chain": police who don't live in the areas they patrol, DAs and CPS employees who don't understand their communities, &c. It's civically an…

When I lived in Manhattan I didn't know any of my neighbors. It's more cultural than it is environmental.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I’m objecting to is the imposition of the “no unsupervised time with your children” rule, which, to my mind, is a punishment just as much as a precaution. Which is another way of saying that it is just as much a precaution as it is a punishment. CPS responsibilities are to the children and their safety. The police & courts deal with the parents, collect any evidence, mete out any punishment, etc.

Well then that brings me back to the other point. We could do this with far more suspected crimes. Just to be safe.

We do do this for other crimes.

Again, CPS isn't focused on the crime.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#750
post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, he doesn't bark at people walking by the house. He barks at people who walk up the driveway, open the gate, and walk towards the house. He didn't bark until the guy was a meter or two away from the house. That's his job. He was left alone in the house for an hour. I have video surveillance showing the neighbour skulking around on my property. Sorry, this is the reason we got a dog. If the neighbour had a…

why do you keep gate unlocked when nobody is at home then? seems like easy solution to stop people trespassing and annoying the dog unnecessary and if it was locked and someone was there he can bark as much he wants because nobody should be there, obviously this doesn't work for people without gate

It may come as a surprise to you, but I don't even lock my front door.

If the dog is inside the house, you can't hear his barks from outside of our property, by the way. Neighbour only heard him because he was right next to the house.

Easier solution: don't be an asshole neighbour.

Not sure why you want to regulate what I do with my house and dog, which isn't harming or annoying anyone, while completely missing the point -- the neighbour shouldn't be there.

And he certainly shouldn't have called the police for something that he caused.

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