Live data from Hacker News

Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

reason.com

671–680 of 763 posts

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#671
This is beyond disgusting. I hope they have the legal standing to file a massive lawsuit against all involved.

One of the first things that popped into my mind is the likelihood of psychological trauma of that child who, effectively, sent mom home and destroyed her career and family finances due to his behavior (which led to the "go have a walk" decision).

I also have to wonder if the parents relationship with their kids --particularly the mother's-- was permanently damaged by this incident. It's like your kids became radioactive and anything you do can land you in jail for 20 years if you are not careful. This has to be horrible.

Frankly, I would probably give serious thought to leaving the country and starting over somewhere else. Living an entire life with such a dark cloud over your entire family cannot be easy.

I understand protecting children. However, I also understand common sense. What she did was not wrong at all. What everyone else did was horrifically wrong beyond any possible justification. They need to get justice. I hope they do. I also hope her record is cleared.

BTW, this isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened. I remember other cases from many years ago:

https://www.google.com/search?q=parents+arrested+for+kids+wa...

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#672
post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you think there’s nothing wrong with blowing through a school zone at 150mph? I have said no such thing. Do you really believe that the law is the only thing that defines what's "wrong"? > Speed limit laws are clearly flawed in many ways but there is a clear reason why they should exist. No, what is clear is that the law should be written to penalize actual harm. Speed limit laws don't do that. They penalize peo…

By this logic they should let you drive drunk until you hit someone too. I think doing things in your car that have substantial and easily preventable risk to other people should not be allowed.

> By this logic they should let you drive drunk until you hit someone too.

I have said no such thing. The only implication of my position for drunk driving is that the law should not be able to punish you for it if you cause no harm. But that in no way means that, for example, a cop who sees you driving erratically can't pull you over, give you a breathalyzer test, find out that you're too drunk to drive, and lock your car, making sure that it's safely parked, and then ask you who to call to come pick you up and take you home. He just can't write you a ticket that forces you to either come to court or pay a fine.

It also in no way means that other people have to let you drive drunk. Bars don't have to sell you drinks if you're going to drive. Friends don't have to let you drive drunk. And in a sane society of responsible adults, those kinds of preventions work better than any law possibly can. The fact that our society has so many nanny state laws that micromanage all aspects of life is a sign that we don't live in a sane society of responsible adults.

> I think doing things in your car that have substantial and easily preventable risk to other people should not be allowed

I think you are way too ready to give power to the government, which will abuse it, and the costs of that abuse of power will far outweigh any possible benefit from such laws.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#673
post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How the heck did we end up here?! In my view, America as a society became paranoid after 9/11. What you're seeing is a symptom of this. It isn't like this in other countries: kids walk around by themselves all the time.

I think it's the suburbs effect. I've been in one of the most rural county of West Virginia, i saw kids outside each time i left the "house".

If it's the suburbs effect, then it's been very slow to come to this point, because America has had subdivisions since the 1950s. Back in the 80s and 90s, what we're reading about here never happened.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What decent neighbor calls the cops on a neighbor's kid walking just down the street from his own house? Well, what decent neighbour isn't able to, at the very least, recognize his neighbors? Maybe this child's parents have kept him locked in the closet, never seen by anyone before, until this one time he emerged unto the world and the police were called not because he was on the street, but because he's never been…

Most of us?

You can't be a decent neighbor if you have no concept of who your neighbors are. You may not be best friends or know their entire life story, but if you can't even recognize them then there is simply no neighborly connection to work with. Without that, they're just people, same as any other found the world over. You can try to be decent to all, but that's not quite the same thing.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I get that sometimes pro-active measures are prudent, but "hey, police, I saw my neighbor's kid walking outside unattended" is not one of those times. It's possible that "I saw a kid walking alone" isn't enough to justify an CPS investigation but "This child's parent was just arrested and is being charged with a felony for endangering this child" is reason enough. At the point CPS got involved, they were investigat…

You are the reason we have a violent oppressive police state (and one that’s racist to boot). Look at the hoops you’re willing to jump through to apologize for this behavior… the banality of evil. “Of course it’s reasonable to report a parent because their child went for a stroll. Then the police would have no choice, but to charge her with a felony; laws the law. Then of course CPS must follow procedure; the kids co…

> “Of course it’s reasonable to report a parent because their child went for a stroll.

never said that. It's worth noting also that the person who called didn't report the parent. They reported the child who was alone. I don't know why she was concerned about the fact that a kid was walking unaccompanied, but as others have pointed out, we've only got one move when there's concern about some strange child's immediate welfare and we don't want to get involved directly and that's to call the police. It'd be nice we had a better option, like an agency to call who didn't see everyone without a badge as the enemy, but we don't.

> Then the police would have no choice, but to charge her with a felony; laws the law.

Again, I said nothing of the sort. In fact I explicitly stated that the cop was in the wrong.

> Then of course CPS must follow procedure; the kids coulda got kidnapped.

Yes, CPS should follow procedure. That doesn't mean that they should act as mindless drones, but they depend on police to alert them to situations where they need to be involved and once they are involved they should do their job. The concern the CPS should have had wasn't to make sure the kid isn't going to be kidnapped. It's to make sure that the child isn't being neglected or abused.

CPS has a tough job. If they a get a case and blow it off as no big deal and the kid they were supposed to protect gets killed that's an injustice too and sadly it happens (see https://abc7.com/gabriel-fernandez-anthony-avalos-noah-cuatr... or https://www.cbsnews.com/dfw/news/cps-cases-workers-fired-aft...).

CPS has a job to do, and there was very little harm done by them in this case. They had a grandparent stay over for a few days. That was it. It might have been worse if the family didn't have nearby relatives who could stay over during the investigation, but again we don't have information on what CPS was obligated to do or what they would have done, we only know what happened and this was not a CPS horror story (which I know do exist!)

In this case, CPS was inappropriately given the case by the police, but there's no indication that they acted inappropriately in their role. In fact, they correctly identified that there was no need for them to be involved.

So in the end some lady messed up and thought a normal situation was an emergency and called the police. It happens and it wouldn't be reasonable for her to think there would be any harm done by that. The police showed up and failed at their job entirely, gave the mother a felony charge and got CPS involved. CPS did their job and are on record that the police made an error. The cop was the real problem here.

I'll also call out another party that failed here and that's the entire rest of the justice system. Every other officer aware of the circumstances who did nothing, and the folks who decided to go ahead with the charge and offer the "deal" that punished the innocent mother are just as bad. If the police officer involved isn't punished for this it also makes the department guilty.

The problems with our justice system go far beyond police. Anyone so clearly innocent should be able to fight in court with confidence that they can be cleared of the bogus charge and without risk of bankrupting themselves in the process. We clearly don't have that today.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> smile politely all the way to avoid escalating. That attitude, while perhaps more comfortable in some ways, just enables the sort of behaviour you encountered, and apparently disliked, from that woman. A blunt response like, "Fuck off. Don't talk to my son.", followed by walking away from her, may have been harsher and not particularly polite, but perhaps it'd cause a person like her to avoid such meddling in the f…

> A blunt response like, "Fuck off. Don't talk to my son.", followed by walking away from her, may have been harsher and not particularly polite, but perhaps it'd cause a person like her to avoid such meddling in the future. No, it would solidify that persons' belief that the people were bad people and embolden her to act more swiftly next time. Confrontation and escalation with swearing doesn't teach people a lesson…

[deleted]

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#677

This is (one of) the logical conclusions of suburban, car-enforced social alienation: if you don't know your neighbors and your neighbors don't know you, then everything that isn't immediately familiar to either party is treated with suspicion. And this holds for the entire "food chain": police who don't live in the areas they patrol, DAs and CPS employees who don't understand their communities, &c. It's civically an…

Excellent point.. in these places it is not normal to ever travel from point A to point B without getting in a car. Anyone walking is suspect. It's bizarre. Where I live the police are not insane like this but people will still be shocked if they find out you walked 1/2 mile instead of taking a car.

It's not even just about children.

When I went to the US for a research visit, I didn't have a car, because my bed and breakfast was in walking distance to the lab (there was even a bus). So, naturally, I walked to a nearby restaurant in the evening, and was stopped by the police, asking me what I was up to. It didn't have any consequences, but still.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#678
post #69

> As they stood on her porch, the officers told Wallace that her son could have been kidnapped and sex trafficked. "'You don't see much sex trafficking where you are, but where I patrol in downtown Waco, we do,'" said one of the cops, according to Wallace > "I still didn't know it was illegal and I said, 'I don't know,'" says Wallace. "That's when the cop replied, 'Okay, I'm going to have to arrest you.'" Let's quick…

> Child services had the family agree to a safety plan, which meant Wallace and her husband could not be alone with their kids for even a second. Their mothers—the children's grandmothers—had to visit and trade-off overnight stays in order to guarantee the parents were constantly supervised. After two weeks, child services closed Wallace's case, finding the complaint was unfounded. This is the fault of the nosey neig…

Well, obviously American are extremely weird with their constant desire to solve all problems (and non-problems) with police and then wondering why does the police have too much power.

But the point of a working system is that it should avoid engaging just because of a stupid phone call.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#679
post #69

> As they stood on her porch, the officers told Wallace that her son could have been kidnapped and sex trafficked. "'You don't see much sex trafficking where you are, but where I patrol in downtown Waco, we do,'" said one of the cops, according to Wallace > "I still didn't know it was illegal and I said, 'I don't know,'" says Wallace. "That's when the cop replied, 'Okay, I'm going to have to arrest you.'" Let's quick…

> Child services had the family agree to a safety plan, which meant Wallace and her husband could not be alone with their kids for even a second. Their mothers—the children's grandmothers—had to visit and trade-off overnight stays in order to guarantee the parents were constantly supervised. After two weeks, child services closed Wallace's case, finding the complaint was unfounded. This is the fault of the nosey neig…

To me this is a side effect of people getting trained to see crime, terrorism and evil deeds everywhere.

It was always a joke that you will be arrested for going for a walk in the land of the free. Until it isn't just a joke anymore.

Sure, there certainly are bad neighborhoods, but to me the focus on security has everyone getting crazy. A lot of countries don't need armed guards at school.

Cops see a lot of crime and have a lot of contact to criminals. I can understand why they would have such a perspective. But everyone else involved should have done a thorough sanity check. And in my opinion they should get some audit if they are in any way able to discern if there is any real danger or not. That is the minimal requirement for their jobs.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a vast Californian suburb dominated by single family residences built in the 90s. The homes are priced around the median for the area. The residents are split about 50/50 politically and racially plural. The majority are married and earn ever so slightly below median income. It's about as average as you can get. Note: I looked up these stats to make sure I got them right. They are mostly at the voting preci…

Move to a sane state. I live in the midwest, in a smaller town. You still see kids playing in the neighborhood and parks and running around. Kids walk and bike to school. Nobody would call the cops over a kid walking by himself unless he looked to be lost or in distress.

Fwiw, I live in California as well, Bay Area specifically. My elementary school kid walks ~2/3mi from school (with a friend) and my middle schooler bikes a few miles to school solo. So do many of their friends. It’s the norm in my neighborhood.
Post reply on HN