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How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

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Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#161

Post by z3c0 »

nso wrote: post #104
quechimba wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They exist. Shamans work with different spirits and even have names for ones they work with. I was skeptical in the beginning but it's a different reality. Just because we can't normally see them doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't see spirits most times I drink, but I once had a gecko-like plant spirit climbing all over me... I often see beautiful patterns and landscapes. It's an amazing medicine. It cured my dep…

You seeing something when on strong drugs that you can't see when not is not strong evidence for its existence.

People have reported achieving identical experiences solely through meditation, though it takes much more work.

Believe it or not, most people who toy with DMT are aware of what hallucinations are, and wouldn't conflate them with reality without a good reason. You're being quite reductive and inconsiderate of your audience - this isn't /r/trees.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#162

Post by pmoriarty »

nikisweeting wrote: post #156
boppo1 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shouldn't be so downvoted. I've taken a variety of psychedelics, and net effect on my life was never more than an entertaining and/or blissful and/or frightening hallucination. They certainly felt profound, even months or years after, but if I really look at my life, they amount to nothing more than an anecdote. I know plenty of people who take/took them very seriously. None of them are particularly wise, althou…

This maybe your conclusion but stating it as base truth is a pretty uninformed take. DNA was discovered on LSD, among countless other major works in math, science, literature, CS, and other fields. Just Google "things discovered on drugs" or "famous/accomplished people that took drugs", the list is loooong.

Some accomplishments that don't get nearly enough credit in discussions like this are art, movies and music.

Countless artists, writers and musicians were influenced by psychedelics. It's not hard to make an argument that the music most people listen to and love today would not exist without the influence of psychedelics.

The Beatles are just one super famous example, where the influence of psychedelics on their music is super obvious and the tremendous influence of The Beatles is undeniable, but the same could be said of many if not most 60's/70's musicians, which in turn had huge influence on what followed, not to mention the obvious influence of psychedelics on psytrance and dance/club music in general.

Something else to consider is that from the time psychedelics were outlawed until very recently admitting psychedelic use was taboo, and so many psychedelic users were in the closet.

These are more open times, so some people are admitting it now, but many are still in the closet because coming out as a psychedelic user could still negatively impact your job prospects, the way society in general views you, and perhaps your relationships with people you care about.

So there are probably way more psychedelic users out there than most people realize, and their accomplishments when taken as a whole are very significant.

How much of such accomplishments were due to the influence of psychedelics? We don't have enough information to say for certain, but there have been studies on the effects of psychedelics on creativity[1][2][3] which show a positive effect. That's not to mention the well demonstrated potential of psychedelics to help with depression, the alleviation of which could also help users to create and contribute to society.

[1] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35105186/

[2] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2723891/

[3] - https://www.amazon.com/LSD-Spirituality-Creative-Process-Gro...

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#163

Post by Tenoke »

macrolime wrote: post #114
vga805 wrote: post #70

Ayahuasca ceremonies are among the most profound, cherished experiences of my life. I prepare for months before partaking in them to make sure my emotional, physical, and spiritual health is in a good place. And I can't imagine taking this drug without being under the care of experienced guides. I also wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who really desire to push the limits of their mind. Some trips have fe…

There's been scientific studies on whether people can get "machine elves" to tell them some actual factual information that they didn't already know. In all of the studied cases the things that were told by the "machine elves" was either something that got verified as false/made up or something the user already knew.

Que Scott Alexander's cute short story on the topic.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#164

Post by alexvoda »

ycombinete wrote: post #76
ipnon wrote: post #14

2.3% requiring medical attention is surprisingly high. This seems orders of magnitude higher than classic psychedelics. It is likely this is greater than simply combining DMT and an MAOI.

I’m not rolling that d40!

About that, there are stories about what happens when you crit fail that d40 and for various levels of succeed or fail. But I never heard a story about someone rolling a crit succeed.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#165

Post by alexvoda »

macrolime wrote: post #114
vga805 wrote: post #70

Ayahuasca ceremonies are among the most profound, cherished experiences of my life. I prepare for months before partaking in them to make sure my emotional, physical, and spiritual health is in a good place. And I can't imagine taking this drug without being under the care of experienced guides. I also wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who really desire to push the limits of their mind. Some trips have fe…

There's been scientific studies on whether people can get "machine elves" to tell them some actual factual information that they didn't already know. In all of the studied cases the things that were told by the "machine elves" was either something that got verified as false/made up or something the user already knew.

As in other threads about psychoactive substances I wonder how much the result of the trip is influenced by the psychonaut's predisposition towards spirituality and magical thinking.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#166

Post by pyinstallwoes »

pmoriarty wrote: post #141
bheadmaster wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem far fetched to me that your own mind could've manufactured such a reaction - especially if the shamans all tried to convince you that the spirits are real, and you felt "guilty" that you didn't believe them. Your mind could simulate the reaction you'd have feared you'd get if you shared your thoughts with the shamans, perhaps? I am personally very skeptical of the "realness" of anything that happens d…

"I am personally very skeptical of the "realness" of anything that happens during a hallucination." Is it a hallucination, though? That's an open question in the scientific study of these substances and experiences.

Why? Everything already happens in your mind.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#167

Post by pyinstallwoes »

bheadmaster wrote: post #149
pmoriarty wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I am personally very skeptical of the "realness" of anything that happens during a hallucination." Is it a hallucination, though? That's an open question in the scientific study of these substances and experiences.

> That's an open question in the scientific study of these substances and experiences. I sincerely doubt that there are scientists questioning whether clockwork elves are real or not. Hallucinations are considered hallucinations because they are seen only by the person who ingested the hallucinogens, and none of the other people who might be present but didn't ingest the hallucinogens. Consistence is crucial to the v…

There is a consistency in people’s experiences with these rituals and places they go to.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#168

Post by pmoriarty »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #98
josh2600 wrote: post #54

I have friends who have done both Ayahuasca and DMT. Ayahuasca seems to be much longer acting and more intense when administered correctly (but a lot of it seems to be set and setting). DMT has two variants, the n-n and the 5-meo. Friends report the n-n to be much more visual and the 5-Meo to be more physical. 5-Meo has been known to cause seizures at high doses. I think both of these compounds raise your blood press…

Set, setting, and the presence of a maestro. Sounds like fiction but there are lineages and training for working with the plants, and people capable of directing other people’s processes and experiences - in a repeatable manner, with awareness of others’ concrete experiences. Taking the tea in the absence of this is a completely different experience. Having a capable maestro in the room is like having a doctor in the…

In the shamanic marketplace, how do you determine who's a real doctor and who's a quack?

In western medicine at least there are requirements of strictly documented education and training at accredited schools, ethical standards and review boards, and professional, monetary and criminal penalties for misconduct. Even then scammers, incompetent, and malevolent doctors slip through the cracks.

There's virtually no accreditation, professional standards or penalties for misconduct in the underground shaman scene, where anyone can hang up a shingle claiming they are a shaman with a long lineage, and where consumers tend to be pretty gullible and naive, and have little to no way of verifying if some self-styled shaman's claims are credible.

This is not an area of purely academic concern either, as some self-styled shamen have raped and tortured people, for starters.. and it's not uncommon for a shaman to fly in and do a one day ceremony then disappear, leaving very vulnerable people who've just been through a profound, possibly life-changing experience with absolutely no support.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#169

Post by pyinstallwoes »

macrolime wrote: post #114
vga805 wrote: post #70

Ayahuasca ceremonies are among the most profound, cherished experiences of my life. I prepare for months before partaking in them to make sure my emotional, physical, and spiritual health is in a good place. And I can't imagine taking this drug without being under the care of experienced guides. I also wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who really desire to push the limits of their mind. Some trips have fe…

There's been scientific studies on whether people can get "machine elves" to tell them some actual factual information that they didn't already know. In all of the studied cases the things that were told by the "machine elves" was either something that got verified as false/made up or something the user already knew.

There is a thing such “rules of engagement.” Perhaps these beings operate on a harm none protocol which requires not introducing new information. Only rehashing prior.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#170

Post by Flatcore999 »

nikisweeting wrote: post #156
boppo1 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shouldn't be so downvoted. I've taken a variety of psychedelics, and net effect on my life was never more than an entertaining and/or blissful and/or frightening hallucination. They certainly felt profound, even months or years after, but if I really look at my life, they amount to nothing more than an anecdote. I know plenty of people who take/took them very seriously. None of them are particularly wise, althou…

This maybe your conclusion but stating it as base truth is a pretty uninformed take. DNA was discovered on LSD, among countless other major works in math, science, literature, CS, and other fields. Just Google "things discovered on drugs" or "famous/accomplished people that took drugs", the list is loooong.

DNA was not discovered on LSD: https://psychedelicpress.co.uk/blogs/psychedelic-press-blog/...
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