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Why is the terminal input so weird?

warp.dev

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Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#161

Post by [deleted] »

thiht wrote: post #151
itslennysfault wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're on Apple iTerm solves most of the problems outlined in this blog post. Option+click moves cursor wherever you want, cmd+click on any url or path to open it. Plus tabs, panes, and a bunch of other neat stuff. Free, open source, no login required, but it'd be cool if you donated to them.

> Option+click moves cursor wherever you want So it doesn't solve the problem then. The problem is that terminal input doesn't respect[1] the other conventions we're used to. I've used iTerm for... 5 years now? and had no idea option+click was a thing. I even had to enable a non default keybinding preset (something named like "natural keybindings something") to get the basic option+left/right arrows to move the curso…

[deleted]

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#162

Post by smoldesu »

throw10920 wrote: post #125
sli wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard of warp but knew nothing about it. I thought you were responding to the post, so I was honestly stunned to realize this comment is about warp itself. That's when I noticed the "pricing" link at the top, and... they want companies to pay per month for a terminal emulator..? They must, because they don't put any actual pricing on that page. That, to me, means rent-seeking. For a terminal emulator.

"Rent-seeking" is blatantly false. Warp is a piece of software that the developers are going to update over time. A subscription model is appropriate for goods and services where the buyers receive value over time due to the continued effort/resources of the producers. You might not want to subscribe to a service or pay for a terminal emulator (I sure don't), but don't lie about it. "Rent seeking [...] is an economic…

Can you describe to me what "reciprocal contribution of productivity" is seen with the business license of this software?

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#163

Post by hansvm »

coldtea wrote: post #123
bee_rider wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t a bad thing that somebody is trying to find an alternative to the standard terminal. Good luck to them! But they decided to write a whole blog post making up problems about peoples’ current workflow. People are naturally going to point out that they don’t suffer from these problems. If warp didn’t want it to matter, they could have not brought it up I guess.

> But they decided to write a whole blog post making up problems about peoples’ current workflow. Not really, those are problems with current workflows. > People are naturally going to point out that they don’t suffer from these problems. They do, they just work around them or are used to them.

> They do, they just work around them or are used to them.

That's trivially true for any "problem" that people "don't suffer from," and it's not that interesting.

Problem: Input editing in the shell is hard if you can't remember the appropriate keyboard shortcuts and don't use the relevant features.

Workaround: Remember keyboard shortcuts and use them.

Blog-proposed workaround: Download our app.

If people want to use their app then that's fine and dandy, but I don't think it's reasonable to frame my experience as being hampered by a problem that the app would solve when my workflow is not in fact hampered by it. It's acceptable and normal for a tool to not have a universal audience.

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#164

Post by hansvm »

throw10920 wrote: post #127
sli wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rent-seeking over a terminal emulator is pathological at best.

The software-as-a-service model is literally not rent-seeking, by the definition of "rent-seeking"[1]. Please stop lying about it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33632437

Unless ongoing costs are essential to the thing being provided then it is, by definition, rent seeking. If you sell me a book, the fact that I continue to derive value from it for years to come might be an argument that you could get away with selling it to me as a subscription, but doing so would by definition be rent seeking unless the subscription offered additional value to me somehow, and an alternative and more palatable model for extracting additional profits in proportion to the value in receiving would be to just charge more for the purchase.

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#165

Post by alexruf »

shric wrote: post #94

Dark pattern #1: Allowing the user to download the app and only then requiring the user to login/signup. This is because you know very well almost nobody will bother to try your terminal if you make it clear you require a login up front. But if they've gone to the trouble of downloading it, dragging it to Applications and running it, then maybe they'll go all the way. Dark pattern #2: On sign-up, you "agree to our te…

Agree. When I stared reading the article I was exited at first. I generally agree that terminals have a lot of legacy issues from the past and could definitely use some innovation. But I don’t see the point why a terminal should require internet-connection at all. There is absolutely no reason any of the features Warp mentions, couldn’t be implemented in a way to work completely offline. Good luck, but I don’t think any people using terminals as their daily drivers will ever use a product like this.

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#166

Post by throw10920 »

smoldesu wrote: post #162
throw10920 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Rent-seeking" is blatantly false. Warp is a piece of software that the developers are going to update over time. A subscription model is appropriate for goods and services where the buyers receive value over time due to the continued effort/resources of the producers. You might not want to subscribe to a service or pay for a terminal emulator (I sure don't), but don't lie about it. "Rent seeking [...] is an economic…

Can you describe to me what "reciprocal contribution of productivity" is seen with the business license of this software?

The improvements made to the software by the developers over time.

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#167

Post by throw10920 »

hansvm wrote: post #164
throw10920 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The software-as-a-service model is literally not rent-seeking, by the definition of "rent-seeking"[1]. Please stop lying about it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33632437

Unless ongoing costs are essential to the thing being provided then it is, by definition, rent seeking. If you sell me a book, the fact that I continue to derive value from it for years to come might be an argument that you could get away with selling it to me as a subscription, but doing so would by definition be rent seeking unless the subscription offered additional value to me somehow, and an alternative and more…

> Unless ongoing costs are essential to the thing being provided

That's not the definition of rent-seeking.

"Rent seeking [...] is an economic concept that occurs when an entity seeks to gain added wealth without any reciprocal contribution of productivity."

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp

The "reciprocal contribution of productivity" provided by the Warp developers is increased functionality of the software.

You can argue that you'd rather pay once for a particular version of the software (I would), or that you don't want to pay for a terminal emulator in the first place (I don't either), or that the Warp devs could stop improving the software in the future (and they could), but "rent-seeking" is still an incorrect description of their business model, and is only used by people who have an agenda trying to slander Warp for some reason.

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#168

Post by smoldesu »

throw10920 wrote: post #166
smoldesu wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you describe to me what "reciprocal contribution of productivity" is seen with the business license of this software?

The improvements made to the software by the developers over time.

It's been almost a year since this was last posted and their promised Linux build hasn't emerged. If they're working hard, their optics certainly don't reflect it.

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#169

Post by karmakaze »

golang-gopher wrote: post #152
KronisLV wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell, lots of people have different preferences. Some might rather enjoy a smarter autocomplete, much like IntelliSense and products like it made the older IDEs feel like text editors. Plugins like TabNine/Codota went a step further and attempted to make the suggestions even more relevant and context sensitive. As long as this "AI" doesn't just randomly execute commands, but rather suggests you what o…

Oh trust me, this terminal does have major problems executing things automatically. If any command runs in the background, the stdout seems to flush into your input editor area LOL https://github.com/warpdotdev/Warp/issues/1796

I prefer this vigil vs "I fail to see the harm." which I hope doesn't get any traction in the application of AI.

Re: Why is the terminal input so weird?

#170

Post by hansvm »

throw10920 wrote: post #167
hansvm wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless ongoing costs are essential to the thing being provided then it is, by definition, rent seeking. If you sell me a book, the fact that I continue to derive value from it for years to come might be an argument that you could get away with selling it to me as a subscription, but doing so would by definition be rent seeking unless the subscription offered additional value to me somehow, and an alternative and more…

> Unless ongoing costs are essential to the thing being provided That's not the definition of rent-seeking. "Rent seeking [...] is an economic concept that occurs when an entity seeks to gain added wealth without any reciprocal contribution of productivity." https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp The "reciprocal contribution of productivity" provided by the Warp developers is increased functionality of…

> "Rent seeking [...] is an economic concept that occurs when an entity seeks to gain added wealth without any reciprocal contribution of productivity."

But implicit in "reciprocal contribution of productivity" is "compared to what." After having installed a barrier across a river, productivity increases by charging a fee and lifting that barrier. In that same vein, Warp spending extra development effort to block continued use of something you've already paid for and downloaded to your machine unless you keep giving them money is textbook rent-seeking UNLESS there's some value they're adding by doing so. Admittedly I should have referenced that value rather than their costs, but in practice the two are related because organizations aren't inclined to incur costs without adding value somewhere.

> and is only used by people who have an agenda trying to slander Warp for some reason

That seems like an unnecessary ad hominem. I don't even particularly care that they are rent-seeking. I just don't want to see that term redefined so far that we have to come up with some other name to refer to the same bloody concept, and especially not for the purpose of needlessly bolstering the profits of artificial SAAS. We're all adults here, and anyone who cares is presumably capable of making a proper argument for why rent-seeking is acceptable here rather than trying to redefine the word to brush their payment model under the rug.

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