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Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#111

Post by tobyjsullivan »

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #91
huevosabio wrote: post #55

I did Montessori from kindergarten until grade 6 (age 12), in Mexico. I really, really like it. I think it reinforces the kids natural curiosity. In middle school, my first year out of Montessori, I was shocked at how little other kids cared about learning. I remember the teacher discussing something about astronomy, and I raised my hand to comment on some fact I had read, and what followed was mockery by my peers an…

Damn, that part about being excited to learn and share knowledge with your peers only to be shouted down dredged up some memories. Most American schools are so regimented that any exploration of knowledge is actually sneered down. How did our communities let it get so bad...

I'll note that this comment assumes standardized education was somehow better in the past. We all have specific memories of being inspired by a teacher or something but that seems like a happy accident more than anything intentional.

The universal education system we have today was never meant to "inspire learning" or anything similar. It was designed as a vaccine for illiteracy across a handful of subjects. I would argue it continues to deliver on that goal quite well (all things considered).

As someone who never attended, what Montessori offers is more the University-style inspiration and idea of learning for the sake of learning. This sounds amazing for the right people but I find it unlikely it could ever be universal.

Students who go to Montessori will have parent who believe in education in one way or another. The students will learn these values from their parents and so there's an inherent selection bias in the attendees and the positive outcomes.

However, education is not universally valued across our society. Public school exists for everyone to hit that minimum literacy bar.

What would be great is something like Montessori for every student who wants it. A different style of school universally available for the families that value it.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#112

Post by thatguy0900 »

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #91
huevosabio wrote: post #55

I did Montessori from kindergarten until grade 6 (age 12), in Mexico. I really, really like it. I think it reinforces the kids natural curiosity. In middle school, my first year out of Montessori, I was shocked at how little other kids cared about learning. I remember the teacher discussing something about astronomy, and I raised my hand to comment on some fact I had read, and what followed was mockery by my peers an…

Damn, that part about being excited to learn and share knowledge with your peers only to be shouted down dredged up some memories. Most American schools are so regimented that any exploration of knowledge is actually sneered down. How did our communities let it get so bad...

My school at least tried, we had separate programs for "gifted" students separate from kids who were just there for the babysitting. Kind of dystopian, but I was never mocked for wanting to learn something even though my school was in a bad area.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#113

Post by crysin »

marssaxman wrote: post #106
krn1p4n1c wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that a lot of it's needless and painful, but there's some merit in knowing how to defend yourself (physically, mentally and emotionally). There's a lot of the petty BS that you learn from in school that transposes to adult life. I hate watching my kids deal with it, but I'd be remiss in raising them if I didn't prepare them for that.

I was home schooled all the way through til college - never went to any regular school. I have never regretted that, and never felt that I am missing out on any skills necessary for dealing with functional adults. Indeed I see the painful impacts and lasting damage those experiences had on some of my friends, and I am glad I never had to experience it. Kids are cruel to each other because they do not yet know any bet…

Just want to point out that adults can be just as cruel or even crueler than children with just as little empathy. I don't believe or buy the idea that it just a kid thing. We live in this myth that adults are more mature but interacting with society dispels that myth drastically quick, in my experience.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#114

Post by vkou »

sedeki wrote: post #54
krn1p4n1c wrote: post #15

Both my kids transitioned from Montessori to public school at 11 (grade 5) in the US. 13 and 16 now. + Love of learning and self-driven discovery + Top of class in pretty much all subjects + Comfortable giving presentations + Comfortable working in groups + At ease working with younger students/children and essentially mentoring them + Excellent handwriting + Respect for teachers - Difficulty with testing that involv…

> - Difficult transition to the cliques and more aggressive social dynamics of public school Am I naive in thinking that the aggressive social dynamics of public school adds no value whatsoever to a child's or teenager's development? Like, _why_ would anyone want to put their children through that? Is it _really_ integral to a person's social development to understand how to interact with bullies (worst case)? I admi…

There's value to teaching people how to handle conflict, in a safe, low-stakes environment. There's always going to be assholes in life, you need to learn how to deal with them.

The problem is when the degree of conflict escalates past that safe, low-stakes level (which it does for some people, in some schools). We don't have everyone spend a month in prison, as part of their education, for instance, because it wouldn't be safe, or low-stakes, and would permanently damage people.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#115

Post by _dain_ »

krn1p4n1c wrote: post #67
sedeki wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Difficult transition to the cliques and more aggressive social dynamics of public school Am I naive in thinking that the aggressive social dynamics of public school adds no value whatsoever to a child's or teenager's development? Like, _why_ would anyone want to put their children through that? Is it _really_ integral to a person's social development to understand how to interact with bullies (worst case)? I admi…

I agree that a lot of it's needless and painful, but there's some merit in knowing how to defend yourself (physically, mentally and emotionally). There's a lot of the petty BS that you learn from in school that transposes to adult life. I hate watching my kids deal with it, but I'd be remiss in raising them if I didn't prepare them for that.

>There's a lot of the petty BS that you learn from in school that transposes to adult life.

No, you learn maladaptive patterns. Your options are artificially constrained. Most of the ways a grown adult would deal with e.g. bullies are just not available to you.

Take physical violence for example. As an adult, if you're threatened with physical violence you have the options to:

- Get out of there. But kids can't do this because they're physically confined to the same classroom with the same people, every day. And obviously you're not allowed to just leave the school when you want to.

- Fight back. Risky, but you at least won't be punished by the courts if you can argue self-defense. But kids can't do this because "zero tolerance" policies punish both the aggressor and victim, by design, if the victim fights back

- Call the police. Kids can't do this, police don't care about schoolyard disputes. Snitching to a teacher just gets you bullied even more.

- Talk the person down. Maybe this works, but in a school they'll be back again the next day, and you'll have to do it again, and again, and again. Adult interactions are not so predictably repeated, unless in some other highly institutionalized setting like the military or a prison (guess which places also have problems with violent bullying).

Adults can, well, solve their problems like adults. Schoolkids literally aren't allowed to solve their problems like adults. Fuck, they're not even allowed to go to the toilet without asking someone first.

Is there any wonder they develop behavioral pathologies to cope: passivity, social withdrawal, self-harm, proactive aggression, self-sabotage, etc etc.

And I wonder how much of adult suffering comes down from not un-learning bad behavioral patterns learned in school? How many people have put up with being treated like garbage for years (at work, in a relationship, etc), because they haven't internalized that they don't need to ask an authority figure to be allowed to leave?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#116

Post by boringg »

thatguy0900 wrote: post #112
SQueeeeeL wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, that part about being excited to learn and share knowledge with your peers only to be shouted down dredged up some memories. Most American schools are so regimented that any exploration of knowledge is actually sneered down. How did our communities let it get so bad...

My school at least tried, we had separate programs for "gifted" students separate from kids who were just there for the babysitting. Kind of dystopian, but I was never mocked for wanting to learn something even though my school was in a bad area.

I sometimes feel like most people would rather drag people down to their level then let them run free.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#117

Post by peytoncasper »

krn1p4n1c wrote: post #67
sedeki wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Difficult transition to the cliques and more aggressive social dynamics of public school Am I naive in thinking that the aggressive social dynamics of public school adds no value whatsoever to a child's or teenager's development? Like, _why_ would anyone want to put their children through that? Is it _really_ integral to a person's social development to understand how to interact with bullies (worst case)? I admi…

I agree that a lot of it's needless and painful, but there's some merit in knowing how to defend yourself (physically, mentally and emotionally). There's a lot of the petty BS that you learn from in school that transposes to adult life. I hate watching my kids deal with it, but I'd be remiss in raising them if I didn't prepare them for that.

I would generally agree with you. However, unfortunately, a lot of organizations tend to mimic these exact same social structures. It may not be as aggressive because we're adults now, but understanding how to navigate that and when something is toxic can be a helpful skill.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#118

Post by matthewowen »

sedeki wrote: post #54
krn1p4n1c wrote: post #15

Both my kids transitioned from Montessori to public school at 11 (grade 5) in the US. 13 and 16 now. + Love of learning and self-driven discovery + Top of class in pretty much all subjects + Comfortable giving presentations + Comfortable working in groups + At ease working with younger students/children and essentially mentoring them + Excellent handwriting + Respect for teachers - Difficulty with testing that involv…

> - Difficult transition to the cliques and more aggressive social dynamics of public school Am I naive in thinking that the aggressive social dynamics of public school adds no value whatsoever to a child's or teenager's development? Like, _why_ would anyone want to put their children through that? Is it _really_ integral to a person's social development to understand how to interact with bullies (worst case)? I admi…

Gotta put your kids through the damage of school social dynamics so that as adults they'll be equipped to interact with other people who were also damaged by it.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#119

Post by thatguy0900 »

boringg wrote: post #116
thatguy0900 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My school at least tried, we had separate programs for "gifted" students separate from kids who were just there for the babysitting. Kind of dystopian, but I was never mocked for wanting to learn something even though my school was in a bad area.

I sometimes feel like most people would rather drag people down to their level then let them run free.

Especially bad because it's not even gifted kids, it was literally just one class for the kids who wanted to be there with the rest of the classes being for the kids who didnt. Yet people want to act like it's discriminatory to just put effort in. Plenty of bad students in the gifted program, but they were there because the teachers saw them trying.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?

#120

Post by matthewowen »

JustAPerson wrote: post #72
Moissanite wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had never heard of Montessori schools before this thread so I'm sure there is more going on than I'm aware of - but I wanted to point out that what you describe here: > school had about 15-25 kids / class year. Some of the larger years were split into two groups with separate teachers. Every year, maybe one or two kids left to go to other schools and one or two new kids joined, but for the most part I grew up with…

Huh, is that the maximum number of students of the same age? To be clear, the Montessori school I went to had a little over 100 students with all 6 class years combined. For context, in the US many public middle/high schools are like two orders of magnitude larger per class year. Many schools have like 1000 kids / class year.

The 38th biggest high school in the US is Cypress Bay, with 3980 students (presumably over four years).

1000 kids / class year is quite unusual!

https://highschoolguide.org/624/top-100-largest-high-schools...

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