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EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

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Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#181

Post by megaman821 »

jjav wrote: post #180
megaman821 wrote: post #115

There must be a better way to report these numbers. If Tesla picks a shoddy trunk latch supplier that may reflect poorly on Tesla as a brand, but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs. I would be more interested in seeing the reliability of components that are critical to the propulsion of the car.

> but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs. But at the end of the day if the car is in the shop, it's in the shop. Regardless of reason. I've had Fiat 500e EVs and they spent more time at the dealer for repairs than any other car I've had in almost 40 years. No, it wasn't for electric motor drivetrain repair but that's no consolation, I still didn't have a car to drive for those weeks. (Well I have other…

That is just a lesson about being an early adopter of anything. Electric cars tend to be brand new models (and even have brand new manufacturers). The only vehicle that seems to be a good comparison of reliability is the Ford F-150, which does not have a substantially different IC and electric version.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#182

Post by noasaservice »

frumper wrote: post #171
noasaservice wrote: post #126

I know that the Twitterpolaypse is a separate discussion, but I think it directly impacts Tesla EV's as well. If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla. When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company,…

You're saying a Tesla won't drive if Tesla goes bankrupt?

I would definitely consider that a possibility.

That thing isn't a car - it's an IoT "thing" with wheels and a battery. And anybody who watches InternetOfShit with any regularity realizes that when there's mothership control, disablement and abandonment isn't far behind.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#183

Post by Brian_K_White »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #107
robin_reala wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are Tesla things though. My VW EV has normal door handles, glove box handle, air vent positioning, manual seats, etc etc.

They may be "Tesla things", but they're in no way related to Tesla's being an EV. The same gadgetry could very well be attached to an ICE vehicle.

The Rivian suv is even worse like this. I was waiting for the suv to come out and now that it finally did I guess I'll just get a 4runner.

It doesn't boggle my mind that there are people with no sense that think a car with just a big touch screen and nothing else is a fresh new and therefor better idea, but it does boggle my mind that there are so many of them that a whole car actually gets all the way to mass production like that, all the engineers and ergonomics people and managers and execs that all had to sign off on all of that... that does just plain flabbergast me.

You need to navigate screen menus to AIM THE AIR VENTS in the Rivian suv.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#184

Post by setr »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #91
wlesieutre wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is that mechanism going to last 20 years? How about the pop-out door handles? I'm not optimistic. I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes a…

I have no idea about electronic glove boxes, but electronic window openers are cheaper and more reliable than manual window openers. Sure sometimes an electronic window opener won't open the window when it's frozen shut but that's a good part of the reason why it's more reliable -- many a manual opener has been broken putting too much torque on a window that's frozen shut.

In terms of whether it’s poor/reliable design, I think the failure mode and dependency chain is much more important than capabilities. The glovebox example has two key features your windows example does not:

1. If the glovebox fails for any reason, there’s no workaround and it goes to closed. (I don’t know whether it’s true there’s no workaround, but that’s what we’ve got suggested here). This would be akin to the window failing, and reverting to full-open position with no way to physically pull it, or convince it to stay in current position.

2. If the infotainment system fails, the glovebox is taken out with it. Because of 1, the glovebox is taken out 100% — not just the convenient infotainment style of usage. This would be akin to, well, the same. The death of the infotainment system is the death of your windows.

3. There could also be the reverse dependency, not in play here (afaik) — the death of the glovebox mechanic may equate to the death of your infotainment system.

That is, the question isn’t whether the individual component is reliable in and of itself (which is less a statement about Tesla and more of their suppliers), but whether they’ve tied things together such that one failure creates a cascading effect — and done so unnecessarily. And in such scenarios, whether backup strategies exist.. (your tire shouldn’t blow, but if it does… there’s an extra tire in your trunk and shitty-but-enough tools to get by). And as I understand it, Tesla has produced a masterpiece of unnecessarily coupled components, particularly around the UX.

So it’s not surprise to me that they see higher UX failure rates — they seem to design the car intentionally to have no degraded experience allowed; either everything works, or nothing does

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#185

Post by buffington »

noasaservice wrote: post #126

I know that the Twitterpolaypse is a separate discussion, but I think it directly impacts Tesla EV's as well. If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla. When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company,…

> When Musk was forced to buy Twitter

Your definition of "forced" is comical, if not delusional.

> If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will NOT work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.

My Model 3 works just fine whether it can reach Tesla's servers or not. I've driven to places with zero connectivity to anything, charged fully, and continued driving without issue for over 100 miles before having service again. The worst thing that happened is an empty navigation screen.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#186

Post by cptskippy »

ridgered4 wrote: post #163
jvanderbot wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We bought a model Y for two years of mortgage payments. It's a dream to drive! But the user experience is abysmal. Menus are deep, the entire dashboard is wasted, including the most valuable real estate in front of the driver, and everything is just too hard. E.g. Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving. Adjusting heating takes two clicks, and when you adjust temp, it clears…

I recently watched a youtube video where a guy rented a Tesla and was frustrated that he needed to dig through touchscreen menus to open the glove box. Apparently it did not have a release latch.

The Model 3/Y are not good rental cars. They're fantastic cars IMO but they take some time to get accustom to, that's not something you want in a rental car.

To open the glove box requires 2 screen presses or activating the voice controls. On the one hand it's an uncommonly used feature, I think I've opened mine once this year. On the other hand it's rather silly that there isn't a button or sensor to allow you to open it physically.

Consider that my Model 3 has a sensor that detects if I close the center console improperly and displays a message on screen, same with the frunk. I would gladly replace one of those sensors for one that detects me groping the glovebox door.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#187

Post by throwaway22032 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #91
wlesieutre wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is that mechanism going to last 20 years? How about the pop-out door handles? I'm not optimistic. I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes a…

I have no idea about electronic glove boxes, but electronic window openers are cheaper and more reliable than manual window openers. Sure sometimes an electronic window opener won't open the window when it's frozen shut but that's a good part of the reason why it's more reliable -- many a manual opener has been broken putting too much torque on a window that's frozen shut.

The Model S has frameless windows. If the window opener fails you can't close or open the door.

They use the fact that they are electronic to add gimmicks.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#188

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

Kirby64 wrote: post #179
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs. Aren't EVs in generally really still luxury (or at least high middle tier) brands? Are there EV equivalents of a Civic?

Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf are both cars I would consider to be Civic-class cars. Especially the Bolt. They also happen to be two of the cheapest EVs on the road, so it lines up.

Class possibly, but not price. Here in Canada the Leaf is $40k and the Bolt is $38k while the Civic is $26k.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#189

Post by bandyaboot »

bmj wrote: post #167
bandyaboot wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's like most VW's that I've seen with no apparent way to unlock with a key, the physical key mechanism is hidden under the door handle trim piece. But maybe you're just saying that opening with the key is not provided as a primary option? For better or for worse, the "feature" is aesthetics.

Huh, so there's some magic panel or something? I'll have to poke around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OECOoNYZXmk

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#190

Post by mikeyouse »

bitexploder wrote: post #170
doph wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, at least on my '22 MY, you can use one of the stalks to turn on wipers or spray washer fluid. There's also an auto mode that turns them on when rain is detected that works about 80% of the time for me. You can also use voice controls.

That’s okay, but still bad UI for a critical safety component. It used to be much harder too. In practice it is okay, but the only driver for this is design aesthetics, even after knowing it is highly disliked the way it is. Wiper controls were one of those little issues that really turned my partner off of her Model 3 over time.

Yeah -- technically you can make the stalk active the wiper a single time -- but to adjust the speed of the wipers you need to look at the touchscreen and (at least at the time I used it), select a fairly small target during a downpour. It drove me crazy in my 20 minute test drive since the auto wipers were failing miserably.
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