Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

finance.yahoo.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 224 posts

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#161

Post by LudwigNagasena »

laputan_machine wrote: post #150
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, of course "actually, it costs $2 per month in fuel" may be technically correct, but I am sure most people would find such concerns quite petty and beside the point.

> Panel gaps don’t even matter from a pragmatic standpoint. This is your statement. They "don't even matter". It's not pragmatic to care about panel gaps. It doesn't matter. That is what you are stating, that isn't me misquoting or being malicious, they're your words! If you meant to instead say "There are diminishing returns to reduce panel gap size, and Tesla have got it right!", then I agree with the first stateme…

What’s the point of that nitpick? You could also say that a 10cm panel gap would be very noticeable and inconvenient, but I think it’s very clear from the context that this is not a very relevant observation to the discussion at hand.

“They don’t matter” as in “the returns on decreasing the panel gap from the 1st percentile of panel gaps on the market to the 99th percentile are so small, spending energy on thinking about it is probably more expensive. It is a cosmetic issue.”

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#162

Post by nhecker »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #134
krzyk wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teslas the majority? I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs. Is there any ranking of amount of EVs by brand sold to date? AFAIR Nissan Leaf was selling quite well some time in Europe. And in 2022 I see BYD sold more vehicles than Tesla, but I can't find data for all the EVs sold in the past.

> I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs. Aren't EVs in generally really still luxury (or at least high middle tier) brands? Are there EV equivalents of a Civic?

I can't speak to what's currently available in the US market, but my 2014 Mitsubisht iMiev is blissfully basic. Unfortunately it was so much so that it didn't sell well here and got taken off the market. No central display screen other than a few monochrome characters for the radio. Buttons everywhere. Manual seats. No backup camera. The ~50mi range from a 16 KWh battery pack is suboptimal for long-range driving, but it's perfect for the city. It is smaller than a Civic though.

I get the impression that, for first-world markets, "EV" is synonomous with "Tesla" and that irks me. It's just a different drivetrain, but somehow the focus groups have decided that all EVs have to have the same de-featured tablet-on-wheels look. I'm generalizing here, but I agree with the sentiment behind your question. I wish there were more traditionally designed cars with EV drivetrains becuase when I drive this one into the ground I sure hope there's something similar to replace it with.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#163

Post by ridgered4 »

jvanderbot wrote: post #109
Gravityloss wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.

We bought a model Y for two years of mortgage payments. It's a dream to drive! But the user experience is abysmal. Menus are deep, the entire dashboard is wasted, including the most valuable real estate in front of the driver, and everything is just too hard. E.g. Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving. Adjusting heating takes two clicks, and when you adjust temp, it clears…

I recently watched a youtube video where a guy rented a Tesla and was frustrated that he needed to dig through touchscreen menus to open the glove box. Apparently it did not have a release latch.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#164

Post by frumper »

bigbillheck wrote: post #146
njovin wrote: post #11

> And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steerin…

If they can't get the paint right, why should I expect they got something more critical right?

I mean, a quick google of Ford paint issues, or Toyota, or Honda all show common issues including Ford losing a big lawsuit. Who gets it right?

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#165

Post by lillecarl »

laserbeam wrote: post #66
throwaway22032 wrote: post #17

Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs. My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a cent…

> Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? Obviously. Any such report (accurate or otherwise) would show you a snapshot of how things are right now. It won't tell you why or predict how the reliability might change. It makes perfect sense that Tesla would still need to iron out issues related to build quality (unlike automakers who have been working on those for decades…

It's a lot easier to catch up on sticking batteries, an esc and some brushless motors into a good car than building a good car. Elon succeeded, he got other manufacturers to start building quality EVs.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#166

Post by ben7799 »

AlanYx wrote: post #116
_ea1k wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of spare tires is correlated with the increase in tire size, IMO. My first car was a 1987 Mazda with 14" tires. It was a two seat sports car, with a tiny spare mounted vertically. They could do that since it was 14". Modern sports cars are 18-20" and the spare tire is a big cargo compromise.

I wonder if another aspect of it is an effort to minimize weight, in order to offset the weight of the battery. The Tesla model 3 long-range battery is 1060 lb. To put that in perspective, that's essentially hauling around the equivalent of almost half the curb weight of a Honda Fit just for the battery.

Not putting massive 21" wheels on everything saves a lot of weight too, while making it possible to carry the spare. The giant wheels are easier to brake, easier to get a flat tire on, cost more to replace. The tires cost more to replace as well. They are really terrible in many many ways and are driven by looks more than anything else.

The massive wheels on modern cars are so big and heavy the suspension designs have had to be redone to handle them.. they add lots of unsprung weight, which makes everything harder.

Giant wheels for performance is mostly marketing. So much so that race cars held onto smaller wheels for a very long time. F1 only recently changed to big giant wheels, and the engineering teams were not happy about it, the change was marketing driven to make the F1 cars look more like street cars.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#167

Post by bmj »

bandyaboot wrote: post #122
bmj wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't limited to EVs, though, right? My 2012 VW TDI won't open without a key fob (even though the ignition is still key-driven). How is that a "feature?" Just let me unlock the door with my key. I am very much against "infotainment" systems, and I wonder if some makers will begin/continue to offer models that do not have a tablet in the middle of the dash.

If it's like most VW's that I've seen with no apparent way to unlock with a key, the physical key mechanism is hidden under the door handle trim piece. But maybe you're just saying that opening with the key is not provided as a primary option? For better or for worse, the "feature" is aesthetics.

Huh, so there's some magic panel or something? I'll have to poke around.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#168

Post by Plasmoid2000ad »

quantumfissure wrote: post #141
photochemsyn wrote: post #98

Much better reporting here: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technol... > "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles." It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As f…

I don't understand why automakers aren't taking traditional small ICE vehicles and throwing the electric components in it. Besides having to spread the weight of batteries out a bit, is it really much harder (I'm not an engineer by any means)? I'd love to see an EV version of the boring Corollas; Civics; Fits; Imprezas; or Yaris out there, instead of them doing... whatever it is they're doing (mostly redesigning ever…

I think it is hard, as the obvious place to but the batteries in the car is as low as possible and between the axles. In a small ICE vehicle - depending on your definition of small, there's not that much space usually between the axles. Then with the batteries between the axles, there is not much space just underneath the seats. Look at the e-Golf battery pack as an example https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DFCKKzUCRRs/maxresdefault.jpg

You could in theory put batteries in the Engine compartment and Boot, but i think beyond DIYers this is unpopular because of the handling effects, loss of luggage space and, I assume, safety in a crash.

The BMW i3 is I think the best example of what type of small car could be converted to an EV. It would have to be a small vehicle with large wheelbase, with small wheels pushed to the corners to make maximum space for battery modules. It would convert a small hatchback into a crossover once the height was increased so the battery pack wasn't too low the ground or taking up leg room.

I can think of two vehicles where an automaker tried, and didn't increase the height much the car is recognizably the same - the VW e-Up and Smart ForTwo Electric - which I think are both bad range wise.

Times when the automakers also increased the height would be the Peugeot e-208 and Opel Corsa-e (same underlying car) and Mini Electric - but I think there was a lot of planning ahead in those designs to have platforms that could be EVs rather than retrofit of existing platform.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#170

Post by bitexploder »

doph wrote: post #148
bathtub365 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really have to go into a menu to turn on the wipers in Tesla cars?

No, at least on my '22 MY, you can use one of the stalks to turn on wipers or spray washer fluid. There's also an auto mode that turns them on when rain is detected that works about 80% of the time for me. You can also use voice controls.

That’s okay, but still bad UI for a critical safety component. It used to be much harder too. In practice it is okay, but the only driver for this is design aesthetics, even after knowing it is highly disliked the way it is. Wiper controls were one of those little issues that really turned my partner off of her Model 3 over time.
Post reply on HN