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EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

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Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#91

Post by bryanlarsen »

wlesieutre wrote: post #43
throwaway22032 wrote: post #17

Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs. My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a cent…

The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is that mechanism going to last 20 years? How about the pop-out door handles? I'm not optimistic. I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes a…

I have no idea about electronic glove boxes, but electronic window openers are cheaper and more reliable than manual window openers. Sure sometimes an electronic window opener won't open the window when it's frozen shut but that's a good part of the reason why it's more reliable -- many a manual opener has been broken putting too much torque on a window that's frozen shut.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#92

Post by ghaff »

laputan_machine wrote: post #83
ajmurmann wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the infotainment software thing. Am I an outlier by just wanting the dumbest possible system for my phone to connect to and run CarPlay on? I don't want anything the car maker added, not even radio.

We are almost definitely outliers, but the good thing is that there are probably enough of us to be a worthwhile market for people to sell us these kinds of vehicles. I don't think we'll ever be forced into buying these ridiculous computers with cars attached. My current manufacturer of choice is Honda, but I'm sure they'll end up adding this cruft at some point to their future cars, too.

At least the Passport seems a pretty good balance even if there are still more "do you really need to have an electronic control for that?" things than I'd probably like in an ideal world.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#93

Post by brk »

Gravityloss wrote: post #28
KaiserPro wrote: post #13

In Which magazine, EVs were about as reliable as normal cars, however if you removed tesla from the ratings, then EV reliability jumped significantly to way above standard petrol/diesel. https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.

I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.

Automakers rate things like panel gaps on an X of 10 scale, where X is on average how many people have historically complained about a gap of a given size. Some thing are rated as maybe a 3 of 10, and they won’t overly obsess on it, but something that shows a 6 or 7 of 10 complaint rate is going to get attention. It is very data driven, from the fact that a significant number of new cars buyers DO actually care.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#94

Post by billsmithaustin »

Gravityloss wrote: post #28
KaiserPro wrote: post #13

In Which magazine, EVs were about as reliable as normal cars, however if you removed tesla from the ratings, then EV reliability jumped significantly to way above standard petrol/diesel. https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.

I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.

That's funny. I remember news reports about how Japanese consumers didn't want to buy American-made cars because of the perception that Japanese cars were higher quality. The salesmen tried to explain that American consumers didn't care about things like panel gaps or wind noise of door closing bump noise.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#95

Post by ajsnigrutin »

rrwo wrote: post #5

Interesting, since EVs supposedly have lower maintenance costs overall https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html > All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because: > The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance > - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance > - Brake wear is signif…

How long to batteries last?

A quick google search shows that average age of a car in USA is ~12 years... oldtimers and crashed newish cars skew that number away from the median, but generally batteries will lose capacity way sooner than that, and replacement is currently either very expensive or even impossible in some models.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#96

Post by ajsnigrutin »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #40
hotpotamus wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense, but I can't imagine that brake wear in particular moves the needle very much. I typically just change the brake pads every 60,000 miles or so and that's like a $50 expense if you buy the nice pads and new hardware set for my car. Of course, I don't drive some exotic car with carbon ceramic stuff that costs $8K to replace (my car seems to stop well enough regardless).

>That makes sense, but I can't imagine that brake wear in particular moves the needle very much It only matters if you're doing a TCO comparison that's time constrained to the first 100-150k where nothing expensive happens anyway. The difference between 2 vs 3 brake jobs or pad slaps vs pad slaps and rotors in that time will dominate the cost.

The problem is the next 150k, where you have to replace a timing belt and maybe a clutch, while a battery replacement is still practically impossible on many EV models.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#97

Post by socialismisok »

njovin wrote: post #11

> And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steerin…

I owned a Tesla for years and had to constantly have issues fixed, including:

Door handles failing to open doors, door handles failing to present, clicking and jerking when steering far to the right or left, dashboard and infotainment turning off completely, poor seals causing the "wub wub" air pressure effect at highway speeds, charge port failures, a poorly seated and rusty windshield attachment, and a ton of fit and finish issues.

Service centers were impossible to get time at, and they charged an arm and a leg to fix a problem only to have it come back a few months later.

Tesla build quality is exceptionally poor.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#98

Post by photochemsyn »

Much better reporting here:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technol...

> "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles."

It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As far as Tesla:

> "Fisher said Tesla is a "standout" regarding electric powertrains compared with legacy automakers. However, Tesla owners continue to report problems with body hardware, paint and trim in their vehicles across all models, according to Steve Elek, program leader for auto data analytics at Consumer Reports."

My favorite EVs are all modified ICE cars where the internal combustion system has been pulled out and replaced with a Tesla powertrain.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#99

Post by creaturemachine »

bravetraveler wrote: post #49
_ea1k wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of spare tires is correlated with the increase in tire size, IMO. My first car was a 1987 Mazda with 14" tires. It was a two seat sports car, with a tiny spare mounted vertically. They could do that since it was 14". Modern sports cars are 18-20" and the spare tire is a big cargo compromise.

Makes me mad that my mustang has a spot for a spare... But no actual spare They give you a fix it kit and some good wishes edit: I suspect it's something to do with tire size as you say, but also brakes . Can't fit a donut with what's on the hub For > $40k I would've liked they throw in a real spare wheel/tire lol

At that point it was a cost cut. They engineered for a spare but the accountants gave you a can of foam.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#100

Post by kube-system »

_ea1k wrote: post #85
kube-system wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are common mild issues in other categories as well. “Braking system issues” sound bad, but a common complaint is brake noise. “Transmission issues” could be hard shifts. “Engine problems” could be a squeaky belt or tensioner.

Depending on how the surveys work, things like "how do I setup billing for charging?" can show up as charging issues too. It makes sense, but it will create a weird skew between EVs and ICE vehicles. Everyone buying an ICE vehicle already knows how to use a gas station.

There’s a lot of complaints that CR could probably disqualify, but there are so many that this process itself could lead to potential bias.

CR is probably not what you want to read if you’re an enthusiast, but if you’re suggesting a car for your mom, it’s probably pretty dang accurate.

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