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Digital books wear out faster than physical books

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Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. I have almost never seen paperbacks wear out. Obviously it's possible, but even in any of their common failure modes, they are still easily read. I don't know why anyone would argue that saved files are somehow more reliable, it feels not at all genuine

You've never seen a paperback made in the 1960s-1990s? The paper is brittle and the pages are literally falling apart. You can't read paper where pieces of it have fallen off and disintegrated.

I have books from 1800's in a perfect condition. Also, comic books from the 70's, 80's and 90's.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly not true of every paperback from then. I wandered downstairs and found several books on my shelves printed in the '70s, '80s, and '90s in totally fine condition. On the oldest books the paper has started to yellow a touch, but are otherwise fine. But even a book from the 90s is 20-30 years old at this point. I'm not sure if that fits colloquially with a claim that they fall apart in "months to years". I've…

> I just...have never seen a book fall apart in months. I have. I had one fall apart on my first read through it. Pages just dropping out of it. I also recall, as a teenager some years ago, buying a hardcover book from a store in the airport, and realizing that the last 20 pages were the previous 20 pages pasted in again. Ultimately, the books I cared about re-reading, I've replaced with ebooks. Because aside from th…

My AD&D Unearthed Arcana fell apart in months.

Although that was notoriously bound poorly.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. I have almost never seen paperbacks wear out. Obviously it's possible, but even in any of their common failure modes, they are still easily read. I don't know why anyone would argue that saved files are somehow more reliable, it feels not at all genuine

If you like pulp fiction from, say, the 1930s, they are very expensive if you can find them.

https://comicbookplus.com

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#194
post #84
post #65

Not if they are stored in the cloud, where the bits are constantly being shuffled around various media. It is never the case that a bit stays on the same sector of the same media indefinitely. A personal library is effed, tho, because some flash fails if the blocks are not cycled. E.g., multi-level cell flash requires at least a refresh, of I think, 36 months (don't quote me)? Basically: the blocks need to be copied…

> Not if they are stored in the cloud myspace was a cloud and lost all music. I get your point, but books have proven to stand the test of time. We just don't know yet for digital media. I mean, very concretely, are amazon's ebooks going to be functional 200 years from now?

Amazon's ebooks or the database that holds them?

Two different things.

I believe every book amazon has in their database will never be lost, at least until WW3. They won't rot. They won't be eaten by worms. Acidic ink won't deteriorate the cellulose. We won't need to have gigantic buildings to house them all.

Meanwhile the world's cloud storage will continue to expand exponentially, and the vast databases of books will be duplicated over and over and over again.

Way better than what happened when the library of alexandria was razed and the intellectual progress of the human race was set back probably several centuries.

I'm bullish on the cloud, if you didn't notice. :)

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#195

Planet Money did an episode on the "e-Book Wars" between libraries and publishers a week ago: https://www.npr.org/2022/11/09/1135639385/libraries-publishe... I learned a few things about digital library books that made me sad: * Publishers only allow a certain number of "rentals" of digital library books, after which the eBook license expires. * Publishers also put an expiration date on the license, so after maybe tw…

The episode is much more fair to the publishers.

They specifically call out the Libby app as the turning point. Once it became super accessible for people to get ebooks through libraries, it started really putting the squeeze on publishers and authors.

In the episode they talk about how publishers started seeing the curve go parabolic and were basically forced into panic action to stay solvent. The money disappears on that side of the equation and full time authors are downgraded to working authors, and working authors are pushed out entirely.

On the other side though, what they've created is a system of winners and losers. Libraries have limited budgets and have to be choosy about what ebooks they're getting now. So fewer authors get a larger slice of pie. I do think that generally lines up with the demand for books now...but it means that it will be harder for new authors to break through.

It's really fascinating to me that, like they point out in the episode, everyone involved (authors, publishers, librarians) are passionate about books and getting people to read. They just need the economics to all work out, and that's where it gets super contrived.

Very complex issue and highly recommend the Planet Money episode.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#196
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also digital formats are constantly evolving and backwards compatibility for old formats is removed. While that was certainly true at one time, Unicode text, HTML, XML, and ZIP files aren't going anywhere (or there'll be a collapse of society so thorough that print books are unlikely to survive, either). EPUB books are basically XHTML and XML zipped up along with any external assets (e.g., images). There are nuance…

HTML isn't immune from broken backwards compatibility. The frame element has been completely removed, the hgroup element is gone, and so is the dir element. acronym is deprecated in favour of abbr. isindex, plaintext, xmp, and listing are all dead. The attributes border, clear, background and bgcolor have all been removed by HTML, and shifted to be CSS' responsibility instead. Just moving between EPUB 2 and EPUB 3, y…

Yes, but all of those deprecated elements can still be rendered just fine by some of the current browsers. And even if, say, you couldn't display an index page with frameset, then the stuff inside the frames is just plain old html files anyway, which you can display easily. bgcolor, etc. all still render fine in current browsers as well.

The main thing is that information which is important to people will get converted to newer formats over time, just as old print books get reprinted if they're popular.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#197
post #165

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> HTML, XML, and ZIP files aren't going anywhere I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those go out of use in a few hundred years, if not much earlier. There will probably be major conversion efforts going on at some point. The alternative, the above formats being maintained for eternity, would be somehow depressing.

I looked up those formats and they are all around 30 years old, which is insane for technology and around when Windows 3.1 and Mac OS 7 were released. So maybe they will stay... They are all-but deprecated though: HTML 1.0 is much different from HTML5 (2014); XML is upgraded to XML 1.1 (2004) and most people use JSON nowadays; and ZIP is very inferior to gzip and 7-zip. We're lucky web browsers are strict with never…

Yes, but HTML 1.0 renders perfectly in any web browser in existence. That's the amazing part. Browsers are designed to fall back to render older versions of standards.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade paperbacks will wear out in months or years. Zip files containing HTML documents... we'll be able to read them for a very long time.

I have paperbacks over 100 years old that are still easily readable. It is in the shelf. Before that it was on my grandfathers shelf. The transformation was quite easy. Shelf ot Shelf. Somewhere on an Amazon server I have a couple of thousand Kindle eBooks. How long will Kindle device be around and useable? They may disappear at any moment really. I have also bought book and publications in other formats. PDFs, Word…

There are still USB floppy disk drives out there. They work fine in Windows and Linux. They'll even work with USB-OTG on Android.

There's a listing on eBay right now for a USB 750MB Zip Drive. I imagine you could get it working in Windows and Linux without much trouble.

I've got a monitor that supports something like a dozen different memory cards. Memory card readers are incredibly cheap.

All those digital mediums are not lost, and all of those digital files can be transferred to more current storage mediums without any loss in resolution.

You're right that storing important files on your MacBook isn't a good archival strategy. It is a recipe for certain disaster. Its essentially storing your books loosely in the trunk of your car along with your gym bag and every now and then an open case of beer. It's not the place to store things long term, just a place to put things while you're working on them. If your logicboard dies, it'll take the storage with it.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#199
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use Calibre to convert your ebooks to MOBI/AZW3, which Kindle accepts, and if you put your Kindle in airplane mode (so it stops getting OTA updates) and wait log enough it'll probably get a jailbreak at some point. At which point you can install KOReader for superior PDF/DjVu reading experience. Last jailbreak covers Kindle software https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346037 HN discussion: http…

This looks very promising. In addition to using KOReader I will be able to customize the lock screen and remove Amazon's upsells. I guess the only downside is that I won't be able to use WiFi or buy e-books from Amazon.

Also, Koreader runs on many brands of ereaders, so it may be worth exploring if you're interested. Kobo readers can read non-DRM epubs out of the box and can also run Koreader. Check out the MobileRead forums. Here's the one for Kindles: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=140

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#200

Many of the books I read as a kid would never have been read if they weren't a physical chunk of dead wood in front of my face, sitting on a book shelf. Now, as a full-ass adult with young kids, I usually buy books from Kindle. It's far more convenient to use the Kindle app on my phone. But there's a voice in the back of my head wondering if I'm doing my kids a disservice. They don't see me holding a big chunk of dea…

I only read on my kindle and yet I have a room full of shelves overflowing with physical books. Most of the justification for those books and shelves is so my kids have a place to wander into and browse around if they want something new to read. Alas, I have yet to get them to show any interest in browsing the shelves. My daughter reads all the time but isn't interested in "old stuff". I'm holding out hope that she'l…

You could read to them, and have them also read to you. Or, you could do family book club, where each of you takes turns picking the thing you all read, then talk about it.
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