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Emergency SOS via satellite

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Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#281

Post by bombcar »

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #266
bombcar wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I daresay having them turn themselves off when the GPS detects they're moving at "driving speeds" would save some lives. Sure it has "driving mode" but you can still override it.

So when I ride the bus or train, I'm allowed to use my phone? What about when I use an uber (or lift or any of the many many other local alternatives)? Not everyone that moves at driving speeds is driving, especially in places outside of America.

Oh, sure, there's tons of annoying cases, and it'll probably never be done, but it's certainly a feature that would save lives.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#282

Post by pajko »

dont__panic wrote: post #168
Buttons840 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does InReach require a monthly cost? Alternatively, you can spend about $200 one time on a personal locator beacon that requires no ongoing costs. It can't do two-way communication but activating it sends out a specific frequency picked up by satellites and is the equivalent of calling 911. Rescuers will come to help you. All serious hikers and outdoor adventurers should carry a personal locator beacon.

Any personal locator beacon recommendations? It's one of those items that I could very much use during bike touring, hiking, and bikepacking... but I've never bought one because it seems like a very large cost for something I won't even test until it is a matter of life and death. Out of curiosity... is there any way to alert your local emergency department in advance of testing a beacon, so you can verify that it wo…

This is a quite good writeup with some recommendations: https://www.greenbelly.co/pages/best-personal-locator-beacon...

And answers your question: "Each device has a test mode that will communicate with the SARSAT satellite network without sending an alert."

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#283

Post by jrnichols »

ghaff wrote: post #47
whartung wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that’s the GPS point. Make this more casually available and folks are likely to more casually use it. The problem for the teams isn’t necessarily finding the party, we’ve had these beacons for years. Rather they have to climb into the mountains in the first place to solve what could have, ostensibly, been readily prevented. Thus taxing a limited resource even further. What should temper that is now there perhaps…

You can be given a bill in some places under a limited set of circumstances but you mostly won't get charged as I understand it (at least until you get into the regular medical system per usual). I would assume if this started to become a real problem, you might see more charging--although I assume S&R teams wouldn't, for the most part, want people in trouble to hold off on calling for help because they might get a $…

It depends on who shows up. Not every call is going to get a full blown SAR response, and a lot of the country doesn't even have SAR teams anyway.

You'll get the local 911 response units, and it might be a Sheriff's deputy, fire, or EMS.

If you're in California you're also likely to get a rescue helicopter operated by CHP, and if they pluck you out of a ravine, the bill is $zero. Really, it's taxpayer funded. We operate with them quite often.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#284

Post by chrisshroba »

lxgr wrote: post #234
Johnny555 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does InReach require a monthly cost? Yeah, the cheapest plan is $14.95/mo ($11.95/mo if you pay for 12 months) and includes 10 "free" text's, $0.50/text after that. I wish they had a non-cost plan (or maybe $10/year) plus $5/text or something like that for use in an emergency. I have an InReach, but haven't used it for an emergency (yet), I've sent a few texts to friends/family while outside of cellular coverage sinc…

> I wish they had a non-cost plan (or maybe $10/year) plus $5/text or something like that for use in an emergency. Given that the outdoor SAR use case is probably the largest reason for people to get one of these devices in the first place, I doubt that such a model would be economically sustainable (unless subsidized by government agencies or possibly insurances saving money due to spending less on large-scale searc…

Yeah, if we conservatively say 1% of InReach users will need to send an SOS message, then looking at the math:

Today, 100 InReach subscribers nets Garmin around $144/yr * 100 people = $14,400

If the InReach were free except for when activating the SOS, the SOS would have to cost $14,000 to make that same revenue from the same number of users. This would surely lead to more deaths due to folks waiting way longer to send an SOS.

Numbers are estimates but the order of magnitude shouldn't be too far off.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#285

Post by MarkMarine »

nradov wrote: post #253
MarkMarine wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see the market for a high end dive watch without air integration, but with the UX they have. The people that don’t care about AI dive with a perdix or tables, but basically require something you can operate with gloves on. The rest of them with the money for a nice watch really want AI.

Garmin sells a high-end dive watch without air integration as the Descent Mk2 / Mk2S. They also have the Mk2i with AI. They don't release sales numbers so it's not clear how well those products are doing in the market. Personally I use the Mk2 because I mostly do technical dives and have little use for AI, but divers like me are a tiny market niche. The latest Shearwater Perdix models do support AI. If Garmin launche…

Ah, yes the garmin watches are nice as well. I swear they just added the AI to the perdix line to catch the super rich gear nerd + rec diver market, because who needs a multi-gas full deco computer and is going to use AI.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#286

Post by almog »

I think it's great for phones to include to have some of the functionality of a SEND (Satellite Emergency Notification Device) front-country situations where cell service is unavailable. These are some of the reasons why I wouldn't use it as a replacement for an ad-hoc SEND or PLB (which I use for long distance hiking):

1. Short wave length (~2.4GHz iPhone 2. Durability - other than PLB/SEND being much more durable when it comes to impact and water damage, the battery itself, at least with PLB is rated up to -40. A phone battery starts to become unreliable at +30f.

3. Latency and reliability: iPhone I believe, due to its short wavelength only transmit to LEO satellite, where as PLBs does LEO, GEO and MEO, which means lower latency in some cases, especially when the sky is obstructed by terrain and even more so if you're unlucky to be in an east-west canyon that doesn't follow a LEO satellite orbit, theoretically at least you have a better chance with GEO satellite. Also, in places such as canyons where GPS fix is unreliable, COSPAS-SARSAT MEO and LEO satellite that serve PLBs will use Doppler location approximation. Not sure if Iridium LEO satellite that serve iPhone do that.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#287

Post by MarkMarine »

pests wrote: post #277
MarkMarine wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my buddies does S&R in Marin county, they get called for people getting lost 300 yards off trail that were going for a walk CONSTANTLY. Just people out for a walk, no cell coverage. They never have gear with them. My friend said this a game changer.

I notice we have a lot of SAR people in this thread so question for everyone: Is it wrong to call for help when you are lost only 300 yards off trail like you said? I would be embarrassed - but is anyone going to be upset?

Not wrong, it’s never wrong to call for help if you need help. Call early before you’re hypothermic, dehydrated and your cell battery is dead.

A lot of my buddies rescues are older people who just got a little lost, or slipped down a steep embankment and can’t get back up. The worst ones are when that happens, but it’s been 3 days and the chances they find a live person are more slim.

The SAR people vastly prefer finding people alive, so if you need help, give them a chance for a happy ending by calling.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#288

Post by Matthias247 »

Alex3917 wrote: post #30
wstrange wrote: post #21

This is really going to eat into Garmin's Inreach market (ditto for Spot, Zoleo, etc). It says free for the first 2 years. I'm curious what the yearly cost will be after that, and how it will compare to an Inreach plan. On an ongoing basis, it's the subscription fees that really add up.

The bigger threat to Garmin is probably just the new GPS. There are probably a lot of folks who will now put off buying their first bike computer for a couple years now that an iPhone with Strava is going to be almost as accurate as an Edge 530 or whatever. Having a real bike computer is still going to be better, but by significantly less than it was a year ago.

As an enthusiast cyclist I don't think they is a threat to Garmin and Wahoo. The customers for those are enthusiasts who ride in all conditions and want a rugged device, a device with good battery life, a slim form factor that doesn't look off place on handlebars. Bike computers offer all of those, while phones do it only in a limited way. That has been driving cyclists to use bike computers for years, and not the lack of GPS precision. So I think nothing will change.

More casual cyclists might use their phones since they already have those and don't want to buy an extra bike computer - but that was already true in the past.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#289

Post by MarkMarine »

pests wrote: post #276
MarkMarine wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t require “activation, ” you try to call 911 and when you don’t have signal, the phone sends an emergency text message to the satellite network. Just read up on the feature, if you’re curious.

What about after the two year free period?

Seems like we’ll find out in a year or two no? No one knows right now but I’m not going to bag on a service that will save lives on the maybe chance that 2 years from now it might cost something but we don’t know what.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#290

Post by ingalls »

dave78 wrote: post #275
ingalls wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, super glad to hear your friends are out of the field safe. Want to address one point however: "The SOS button is very expensive. Extremely expensive" In my experience on multiple SAR teams (Search and Rescue), this is almost never the case in North America. Search and Rescue is one of the few services that is almost uniformly free [1]. Thousands and thousands of volunteer hours every year keep it that way.…

> Search and Rescue is one of the few services that is almost uniformly free [1]. I wonder if this will remain true once everyone with an iPhone has access to it. The increase in volume could easily overwhelm the volunteers, no?

The next couple years will give us more concrete numbers, but based on my personal experience, I doubt this will change call volume significantly. We're mostly seeing dramatically increased call volume due to more people being involved in backcountry recreation and less so due to increased comms coverage through cell or satellite devices.

While there is the argument that these devices give increased peace of mind that the backcountry is somehow "safer", I don't know that I've seen this cause an uptick in callouts for our team. Subjects needing rescue are still usually hesitant to call for rescue and usually try to self extricate, even when they should likely initiate a rescue. Most of our call-outs happen at night for this reason.

That said, the upside of these devices is significant - especially in the area of improving our response time and reducing total callout time. The advent of the E911 Phase 2 (including location in 911 calls) has made the majority of our call-outs dramatically simpler & faster. What was formerly a multi-step process which might involve something like deploying multiple hasty teams to sweep large areas; determining subject location; deploying specialized resources for extraction -- can now jump straight to deploying a single hasty team for medical while simultaneously deploying specialized resources given that the terrain & access is known via the subject's location.

Edit: I can't edit my above comment, but just got confirmation from a friend both Grand and Wayne have revised their rescue policy and now only charge in exceptional circumstances - https://www.grandcountyutah.net/734/Donate-to-GCSAR

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