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Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

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Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can use ordinary market dynamics to regulate healthcare. During an emergency you should be driving to the closest hospital, not the most affordable one. And during an emergency you really have no insight as to how much of an emergency you have on your hands. Healthcare can essentially demand your entire worth. The market also has not even provided sufficient incentive for hospitals to announce their…

That's kind of my point actually. I do think hospitals should publish their rates and so be forced to compete, but the government should also be regulating the price of services, overhead, and medicines for everyone instead of just medicare/medicaid patients. It's such an essential service that going to a hospital shouldn't be a decision to ruin you for life or not financially while hospital administrators, pharmaceu…

> government should also be regulating the price of services, overhead, and medicines for everyone instead of just medicare/medicaid patients.

> almost always when the government steps in to fund things on the demand side of the market equation it leads to massive growth in costs and burden for consumers. Universities are another great example of this.

I agree with all the points you make in your comment. I'll just add that the problem is far more complex than this. And, yes, it is all, 100%, caused by government intervention.

Without diving too deep, the problem starts with substandard education in the US all the way down to K-12 level. From there it goes to the insanely high cost of university education due to the government being involved in guaranteeing loan. Nobody in their right mind would give an 18 year old a $300K loan or $120K loan for a bullshit degree with no prospects of repaying it in their lifetime. Then we have heavy, expensive regulatory frameworks and horribly slow and bureaucratic processes to build or make just-about anything. And, finally, lawsuits.

When someone is laying on an operating table in the hospital, they are surrounded by a team with somewhere in the order of three to five million dollars in student debt. The same team likely spends somewhere close to a million dollars a year in liability and other licensing and insurance.

Each and every manufacturer of the equipment in that room and the tools used for the surgery, employs people with student debt in the range of $100K to $300K per person. Hundreds of them. Thousands of them. The companies has huge regulatory, legal and insurance costs.

The hospital is in a similar situation. Millions of dollars per year in legal, insurance and other costs and a workforce that owes millions of dollars in student loans. Not to mention the various laboratories and services that make the hospital run.

If you follow the various tentacles and construct financial cost model showing what it takes for a person to be on a table in an operating room, the resulting number will be massive.

That's the key to our broken healthcare system and why no socialist utopia is going to fix it.

Until we fix the underlying cost structures driving the system, it is impossible to pass laws to truly control such costs. The "single payer" idea is, in this context, in a range between utopia and demented.

Why is it demented?

here's an analog: We take out one credit card with zero interest for a year. The intent is to use it to pay off all of our other credit cards within that period using this card by transferring the balance. People do this all the time.

Here's the problem: They don't change their spending behavior. Instead of ending-up with no credit card bills after twelve months, they wake up one glorious Monday now owing more money and having one more card to pay off.

You have to fix the underlying cost structure first. The problem can't be solved without this important first step.

This means getting the government out of education, student loans and a bunch of other areas. It also means demanding that the government be efficient and effective in doing the work we hire them to do.

The problem with this concept is that the people need to understand reality in order for them to vote appropriately. We don't have an informed citizenship. Not even close. We have clans fighting against each other and a few of us in the middle yelling "the emperor has no clothes!", and nobody listens.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think that's what bothered me most: I did my part, I tried to protect society by getting a shot, but when confronted with negative fall-out I had to fight for a diagnosis and was pretty much laughed out of the room for suggesting a relation to the booster. I don't think I've processed this yet. I recently came to believe that it's not accurate to model random humans as reflections of self. Situations like this mak…

That's a complicated way of saying "people are individuals."

No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem field is slighty different: if your income is constrained and you are generally in good health you are going to choose a low premium plan with consequent higher deductible. When it's your turn to end up in hospital you get to pay up to the (substantial for you) out-of-pocket limit, even though you belong to the demographic that cannot afford it and Obamacare was sold to you as making healthcare affordable…

All of this was true pre-ACA, but worse (in my family's case, much worse; we went bankrupt over $90k in medical bills back in the 2000s). As it was, the thing barely passed.

> All of this was true pre-ACA, but worse (in my family's case, much worse; we went bankrupt over $90k in medical bills back in the 2000s). As it was, the thing barely passed.

Sorry to hear that.

One of the massive negative side-effects of ACA will come to the national forefront in a few years. We now have tens of millions of people enrolled in Medicaid. What most don't understand is that, after 55 years of age, this isn't insurance at all, it's a loan you are required, by law, to repay.

Don't take it from me, here's a summary directly from the Medicaid website:

https://www.medicaid.gov/medicaid/eligibility/estate-recover...

I looked into this a while back. The State can place liens on your estate and your children could be stuck with a bill because of that. For example, if you have a home it is very likely that 100% of the value of your home will be consumed by your healthcare bills if you needed what I am going to call a normal level of care for that age group from 55 onwards.

In other words:

People were told they they were getting health insurance through Obamacare. In reality, they agreed to receive a credit card using their estate as collateral. If this isn't fraud, I just don't know what is.

Obamacare might just be the largest private-property grab by any government in the history of this nation, if not humanity. I wonder how many people actually understand they will not be able to leave anything to their children. Or worse, leave them a huge bill owed to the State.

These are the things that really rattle me: Politicians selling pushing programs in the most dishonest ways possible. How many people would have supported ACA had they were told they would have to sign-over their estate to pay for their after-55 medical bills? Very few, if any.

What really sucks about this is it affects the low to middle class portion of the population in a disproportionate manner. They are the ones who end-up on a Medicaid plan, not people who can afford to pay for something else. Once again, politicians claim to be for the little guy and, instead, they royally shaft them every time they are able to. All they care about is their votes.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#614
post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a parent. It's not that I don't think some children should be vaccinated; some should. Overweight, diabetic, etc. We know where the risk is, and we know the vaccine reduces serious outcomes. It's recommending it across-the-board that I object to. Now if your argument is "what's the harm?, why not vaccinate everyone?" my answer would be we don't actually know what the harm might be to these kids later in life. No…

> It's recommending it across-the-board that I object to. Early on, the goal was to reach herd immunity while we still had vaccines that were fairly effective at reducing transmission against the variants we had had, before they mutated. But also, I don't know how familiar you are with gov't messaging. But the more widespread you make a message, the less nuanced you can make it. People at large don't take nuance very…

> Early on, the goal was to reach herd immunity while we still had vaccines that were fairly effective at reducing transmission against the variants we had had, before they mutated.

The mRNA vaccines weren't even tested for transmission during the early trials. It was impossible to make educated statements about reaching herd immunity through mass vaccination without any data. This did not stop people from introducing mandates in some places, even after it became clear that herd immunity will not be reached, which goes a little beyond bad communication.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read this exception in the link you posted: - "with one exception. Men under 40 who received a second dose of the Moderna vaccine had a higher risk of myocarditis followingvaccination. The Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines are available in the U.S." I'd say it's worth a mention. But then it's also quite an unfair comparison if you compare the all the vaccinated against a filtered group of unvaccinated people.

I read that passage as "men who received a second dose of the Moderna vaccine had a very modest increased risk of myocarditis over those who both did not receive such a dose and remain (apparently) uninfected" -- eg, it's possible that specific intervention slightly increases absolute risk of myocarditis vs whatever group can avoid both vaccination and infection indefinitely (a group I suspect is not large). It's als…

So the full passage below. Seems quite unambiguous to me that for the second moderna shot,the risk is higher than for unvaccinated Covid infection.

I also wonder how to square it with the rest of their claimsc Seems that you can't take any publication headline of any instance on any side of the argument on face value when stuff gets politicized like this.

"But the risk of myocarditis associated with the vaccine was lower than the risk associated with COVID-19 infection before or after vaccination – with one exception. Men under 40 who received a second dose of the Moderna vaccine had a higher risk of myocarditis following vaccination. The Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines are available in the U.S."

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 12 billion or so COVID vaccine doses given also only have a history of ~2 years. If the adverse effects of it were say for instance, minor cardiac damage that resulted in no acute symptoms, but instead an overall reduction in life expectancy by 5 years, the costs of such would not be known for some time. Another side of this is the possible cumulative effects of ongoing covid vaccination boosters that have no lon…

The risk of taking action was compared against the risk of not taking action. I imagine most scientists would have loved to have developed this vaccine 10+ years ago and done long term studies, but that wasn’t an option. It may have been influenced by the bias for action, but the trade off was the death and disruption we saw in 2020-21, compared to a future risk that scientists projected as minimal. It still seems li…

Enforcing vaccination before it's possible to know the long-term effects, for all groups including those at low risk from Covid, was and is a terrible idea. Offering it to the elderly, obese and otherwise-at-risk, where there's a clear and obvious net benefit, was all that should have been done.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't that still apply to someone vaccinated though? Not at close to the same rate, no. "can" would be a technically true but entirely misleading word there, as the topic of conversation is the risk ratio. "1 in 10 chance" things can happen. "1 in a million chance" things can happen, also. But these two "can" usages are not the same. You should know this. You should not be playing word games. Do you think, falsel…

>Not at close to the same rate, no. That is highly debatable, especially with the current (weaker) strains. Unless you have comorbidities or are otherwise in a high-risk category the chance the Covid will kill you is near 0.

> especially with the current (weaker) strains.

What makes you say that the current strains are weaker?

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#618
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polio - people have forgotten rows of kids in iron lungs - perhaps you should read some history books and forget the crypto.

How is polio related to covid?

That vaccines actually work.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.... "Myocarditis is more common after severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination, but the risks in younger people and after sequential vaccine doses are less certain." The study size is 43M people.

Attaching that quote to that study, without the appropriate context, is disinformation. The study didn't look at the risk of COVID infection in unvaccinated individuals. All this study proved is that COVID infection can trigger cardiovascular issues in vaccinated people. It doesn't indicate in any way that the cardiovascular issues were caused by COVID instead of the vaccine. You'd have to look at infected-but-not-va…

The study includes vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals and documents respective risks. It spells this out explicitly in the Results paragraph:

"but was lower than the risks after a positive SARS-CoV-2 test before or after vaccination (11.14 [95% CI, 8.64–14.36] and 5.97 [95% CI, 4.54–7.87], respectively)."

And more extensively in summary:

"First, the risk of myocarditis is substantially higher after SARS-CoV-2 infection in unvaccinated individuals than the increase in risk observed after a first dose of ChAdOx1nCoV-19 vaccine, and a first, second, or booster dose of BNT162b2 vaccine. Second, although the risk of myocarditis with SARS-CoV-2 infection remains after vaccination, it was substantially reduced, suggesting vaccination provides some protection from the cardiovascular consequences of SARS-CoV-2. Third, in contrast with other vaccines, the risk of myocarditis observed 1 to 28 days after a second dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine was higher and similar to the risk after infection. Last, vaccine-associated myocarditis was largely restricted to men younger than 40 years with 1 exception; both younger men and women were at increased risk of myocarditis after a second dose of mRNA-1273."

It does so by including "5,934,153 had SARS-CoV-2 infection before or after vaccination."

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Covid has killed millions. How many have died of myocarditis? While I agree with your sentiment, it's hyperbolic to claim the vaccine has done "exponentially more damage than the virus".

Millions die every year for we are mortal and numerous. Thankfully, the world's population grew during the pandemic. 210,000 to 448,000 Americans die every year to preventable medical errors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventable_causes_of_death#An... This is more people than COVID kills in the same time period, but strangely there's no panic about that. No mandates. No significant steps from any authorities to d…

Hint: if you don't want to "slow down", just don't post anything dang disagrees with or might disagree with. Works every time.
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