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Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

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Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#481

Post by Traubenfuchs »

ohiovr wrote: post #300
jzb wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Can we just admit this isn't about logic or statistics, and never was? It was always a persuasion game either way." Kind of? The fact is that we've turned into a society where we can't even be unified in trying to prevent disease. If "the left" is for vaccines, masking, social distancing, etc. then "the right" has to immediately be against it. I don't recall any of my friends or family needing persuasion at all. The…

I don't watch TV. I hate TV. I am a programmer. I will never be programmed. People who fear, they do so because they were programmed.

How do you deal with the fact that the majority of people are programmed into absolute submission? I hate it.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#482

Post by dpedu »

sokoloff wrote: post #478
dpedu wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a setup for a gotcha, or did you label it as novel in your comment without knowing the answer to this question? Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, mRNA vaccines targeting infectious diseases including HIV-1, rabies, Zika and influenza were already in clinical trials, as were mRNA vaccines targeting multiple hematologic and solid organ malignancies (Pardi, 2018).

You seem to be the one arguing that, with respect to uncertainties about possible side effects, mRNA vaccine deployment was not novel. It's not a convoluted argument; it's a straight-forward "I think it was novel [with respect to the unknowability of low-percentage side-effects]". If you have data that we did have a widely deployed vaccine using that tech (which I think, but don't 100.000% know, hadn't happened), the…

Just how wide do you want "widely" to be? Are you trying to say we don't learn anything about this subject from clinical trials? I'm sure data related to the many clinical trials I mentioned is available.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#483

Post by asveikau »

pantalaimon wrote: post #418
threatofrain wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A two week stay at the hospital may have amounted to over $170k at the optimistically low end.

How?! Did they have to build an extra annex to the building just for that?

Good luck building a hospital wing for $170k.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#484

Post by tzs »

munk-a wrote: post #448
beebmam wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. People with insurance have zero idea how much medical care actually costs because it's really hard to keep up with all the health insurance documents one receives. Try being hospitalized without insurance. You'll find out really fast. (I was, twice, circa 2010. I was unemployed and uninsured)

I would suggest a slight shift in wording from "how much medical care actually costs" to "how much medical care actually bills" since as we've seen both by examining the meteoric raise in healthcare billing from 1930s-today and by comparing the US health system to single payer systems abroad it's pretty clear that the billing for US medications, procedures, therapies and other healthcare items is completely fabricate…

It's probably more complicated than that.

When you compare US costs to countries like the UK, France, Germany, Japan, and similar it is indeed true that US is significantly more expensive.

It is also true that over time US costs are rising significantly.

However, the ratio of US costs to the costs of other countries has stayed roughly the same over time.

In other words, the rest of them are having the same problem of rising costs that the US is, and their costs are rising at roughly the same rate. We pay a lot more than they do now because we paid a lot more than them a long time ago.

This is worrisome, because it suggests that even if we can lower our health care costs to be in line with the rest of the developed world we are still heading for unaffordable healthcare--all we'd be doing is making so we reach that when the rest of the world does instead of a few years before they do.

Here's some comments from earlier discussions with numbers and a link to the data [1] [2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32744920

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29768484

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#485

Post by oezi »

cerradokids wrote: post #257
oezi wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk from myocarditis from getting Covid-19 is higher than getting it from the vaccine. The decision to vaccinate even young people made sense during the height of the pandemic and it doesn't make so much sense now anymore.

Where did you get that data? According to this study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/ there is no increase in Myocarditis cases among unvaccinated people who have contracted Covid-19. This study tracked 196,992 people which is a huge number, so the data here is quite good and clear. Contracting Covid-19 does not put you at increased risk for Myocarditis, the same cannot be said when evaluating a population t…

Well 200k is not very much.

The German vaccine watchdog issue a warning letter because there were roughly 300 cases in total reported for the approx. 200m doses administered until May 2021 in the entire EU.

Myocarditis/pericarditis are very rare and the effects for young people were mild.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#486

Post by kgwxd »

blacksqr wrote: post #472
robomartin wrote: post #13

One of my kids, 15 at the time, was one of the reported cases of myocarditis. At the time of his hospitalization he was one out of 700 cases. He was in the hospital for two weeks. While under observation after his release, we have not seen indications of lasting damage. No way to know what the future holds. So far, so good. We are still not anti-vax at all. In fact, I might go for my next booster today. The one thing…

>Obamacare, which was forced upon us The ACA individual mandate penalty was eliminated in 2017.

Hmm, that appears to be true. Then why does my tax person still require me to submit the paper that shows I had insurance for the whole year?

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#487

Post by ministryoftruth »

thrwy_918 wrote: post #354
robomartin wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A two week hospital stay is orders of magnitude more than $10k, so presumably the $10k representes the out of pocket portion of the care. No, that's not the case at all. We had to negotiate with the hospital and settled for this amount. The ACA covered none of it or a very small portion. I don't remember the actual bill, my wife dealt with all of it (she is a doctor and knows how to discuss such things with hospital…

> The ACA covered none of it or a very small portion The ACA is not an insurance plan, so I assume you are using "ACA" as shorthand for "ACA-compliant insurance coverage". It is simply not plausible that an ACA-compliant plan would wholesale "not cover" a hospital stay for myocarditis, absent extremely niche and bizarre circumstances. Given that you don't seem very familiar with the specifics, I have to assume that y…

The reason that it's not covered is that insurance plans don't cover damages caused by experimental procedures that the insured chose to participate in. Recall that the vaccine is not FDA approved for children (only adults), it only has an emergency use authorization for children.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#488

Post by sokoloff »

dpedu wrote: post #482
sokoloff wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be the one arguing that, with respect to uncertainties about possible side effects, mRNA vaccine deployment was not novel. It's not a convoluted argument; it's a straight-forward "I think it was novel [with respect to the unknowability of low-percentage side-effects]". If you have data that we did have a widely deployed vaccine using that tech (which I think, but don't 100.000% know, hadn't happened), the…

Just how wide do you want "widely" to be? Are you trying to say we don't learn anything about this subject from clinical trials? I'm sure data related to the many clinical trials I mentioned is available.

Wide enough to hit the vast majority of ages, races, health statuses [pregnancy, cancer, other medications/medical conditions] to which the vaccine will be deployed and in numbers sufficient that 1 in 10K [or even 1 in 1K] frequency adverse reactions would be reasonably sure to have shown up. (1 in 10K across an 8B population is 800K adverse reactions; 1 in 1K is 8 million people...).

Are you trying to say that we learn everything about this subject from clinical trials?

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#489

Post by xadhominemx »

z7 wrote: post #451
xadhominemx wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well COVID also causes myocarditis, so it’s not surprising there were a lot of cases at the hospital. The question is whether the vaccines cause myocarditis at a higher rate than unvaccinated/unboosted COVID infections. They might for young men. For every other group, unvaccinated/unboosted infection is way more likely to cause myocarditis than the vaccine.

"Retrospective cohort study of 196,992 adults after COVID-19 infection in Israel between March 2020 and January 2021. [...] We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/

Not sure what the deal is with the Israeli study, but other, larger studies have found a huge effect consistent with my comment eg https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA....

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#490

Post by ccn0p »

matrix_overload wrote: post #455
taolegal wrote: post #10

The same people who wouldn't be charitable with, say, Exxon, are bending over backwards to defend global pharmaceuticals. Exxon has an interest in minimizing (disregarding) the harmful effects of their products and same goes for Pfizer & friends who's got every govt funneling money to them seemingly without limit.

Because the Big Pharma played the centuries-old trick from a conqueror's handbook: give your vassals a tiny bit of power over their peers, while pillaging the land for profit. So the activists now enjoy the newly given power to bash, shame and deplatform anyone who could be labeled as "antivaxxers", while predictably turning a blind eye towards the hand that gave them that power.

For multiple years now I've been trying to figure out how the magic trick worked, and I think you just nailed it.
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