Live data from Hacker News

Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

fastcompany.com

181–190 of 290 posts

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#181
post #6

>If solar panels can last 40 to 50 years, which is roughly double what used to be the rule of thumb for their life span Presumably, these panels face ever diminishing efficiencies. What is the threshold where it makes sense to replace a working, but low efficiency panel with a new one? That is, if a field of ancient generation-1 panels is operating at 5% efficiency, is it worth the expense to tear them out and replac…

Hawaii, near southern point, has a road with one side abandoned windmills. At least mines in USA have a reclamation plan and bond to pay for it.

https://advertiser-tribune.com/news/191061/trip-to-hawaii-re...

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#182

Aren’t they mostly silicon and recyclable metals? If so, who cares about the waste? It depends on what’s in the waste that matters, not its raw volume. The materials used in solar panels are both highly recyclable and environmentally benign, a great combination.

Indeed. Compared to other the garbage that people put in landfills right now, this is nothing. Of course this article is a clever bit of FUD in disguise. By taking the problem seriously and then presenting a solution to the problem that never was real to begin with: ‘We’re gonna have (tens of millions) of metric tons of waste from PV. We’re all gonna die,’” Actual quote from the article to convince us that there appa…

Let's just say you were running FUD in this direction and this piece of FUD has reached its EOL, credibility cannot be sustained. If it goes down too obviously as ridiculous it may well take some still active FUD with it. If you were running FUD you'd have to play a little D even if it was your first month on the job.

So this kind of thing being consistent with that FUD rearguard action as it fails doesn't make it true (or false). How plausible is it? Getting those who published their deep "thought leadership" while being taken in by the FUD will happily happily go along with it (was serious, not so much anymore) rather than say "yup, I got taken in here, garbage on roller-skates" [1]

[1] I absolutely got taken by the WMD lies. Totally suckered. Believed them all. Occams razor ruled out the big conspiracy for me. The total lack of accountability for the lies I believed after it became completely clear, adjusted my prior to be rather more skeptical and the probability of actual, targeted lies being pushed as being much more plausible. I can overcome both with good evidence but "the NYT/WaPo/WSJ/CNN/CBS/Fox/Harvard/Stanford/etc says X and they wouldn't be in on a conspiracy nor be suckered readily, all of them so..." counts for not much anymore as evidence.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing scheduled maintenance in a 90+% uptime system with intermittent, unpredictable, correlated, continuous fluctuations in power, with capacity factors in the 10-30$ range of nameplate capacity. I have a great solution for nuke plant downtime, this is going to blow your mind, wait for it: for every 14 plants worth of power, built, drumroll please.... 15 plants! Then maintain them on a schedule.

Solar/wind/batteries/hydrogen > nuclear The way you back up your $10/W nuclear plant is with $0.50/W simple cycle turbines, which can burn hydrogen. Or maybe $1/W combined cycle, if you want to do seasonal storage.

Not true, for new nuclear (LFTR / TMSR) at least it isn't. They are safe and reliable, also their output don't allow for building weapons.. it's about as good as it gets.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This number is based on existing mines (active and inactive) only. There's a lot more fissile material available than just the 40 Gg of usable fissile material. And that's assuming we only use U-235 and Pu-239. That's all known and inferred accessible reserves. Not current mines. There are about 8-10 million tonnes of natural Uranium which has 0.5% extractable U235 (a bit more if you're willing to pay 10x as much f…

> Why not keep doing the thing that's provably working. So nuclear then? Plants take on average 1-year longer than natural gas plants and a single nuclear plant produces thousands of hectares worth of solar panels with a tiny fraction of the resource usage. We have viable and in-use grid-scale U-235, Pu-239, and Th-232 reactors. We also have viable and in-use military operated U-233 breeder reactors in multiple natio…

> So nuclear then? Plants take on average 1-year longer than natural gas plants

Water moderated reactors provably cannot work. Breeders do not exist. You don't get to start gaslighting about build times until you prove it's possible to make the fuel rods.

Here's a few hints on how to tell if something works: What was the largest ever deployment of nuclear generation in a single year? For how many years in a row have renewables exceeded this? How many Joules of wholly unsubsidized, non-state-controlled, self-financed, insured nuclear generation have ever been produced? Now how much does unsubsidized solar or wind generation sell for?

> a single nuclear plant produces thousands of hectares worth of solar panels

How long did Inkai block 3 Uranium mine take to develop? What is its area in km^2 including the exclusion zones where the ground is too poisonous to live on or grow anything on? How many GW net of solar could be placed there in Kazakhstan's climate? How many times less energy does the Uranium it outputs produce? Now do a Namibian open cut mine with 0.01% concentration (the Uranium might even break even). How much fossil fuel does it take to mine the fifty billion or so tonnes of ore you'll need?

If you were to expand production significantly that would be a comparatively high concentration mine.

> with a tiny fraction of the resource usage.

A solar panel produces >100GJ per kg of sand with roughly 10x the silver investment of a NPP or ~50g/kW and traces of B and P.

The power density is around 3-6W/kg for high durability panels depending on how they are mounted. A nuclear reactor produces 5-10W/kg.

The solar panel doesn't require indium or chromium or cadmium or all of the exotic materials required for a gas centrifuge. A kg of Uranium ore from Rossing produces about 30-80MJ.

You can't just repeat a lie based on 20 year old data. You're making a claim that renewables (which have now surpassed the world nuclear fleet and are adding 20-30% per year) are insufficient compared to Nuclear. Prove it. Show me where the fuel can possibly come from.

> Even if we used only U-235 and Pu-239 reactors using existing reserves to replace all current and projected global energy needs, we'd have 79 years to find more fuel or build something else.

It's ~79 years at current consumption. Which one of the facts I stated about the available energy are you disputing?

Is there not roughly 8-10 million tonnes of Uranium resource?

Is it not 0.7% fissile?

Does 20-30% not get left in tailings?

Does a current generation reactor not require roughly 3.5 tonnes net of fissile material per GW?

You can't just repeat the lie. Where is the fissile material hiding and how do you start your breeder reactors once you are done without taking a century to build up the U233?

> The first 5 grid-scale reactors being built in the USA are part of a US Department of Energy program looking to create shovel-ready

So you have a program to maybe finish building the test bench in 10 years?

> The technology is fully proven in test reactors

No reactor has ever run start to finish at non-negligible capacity factor with a multi year fuel cycle (whether constant reload or not), created >80TJ/kg of usable steam the whole time and ended with more fuel than it started. It is as proven as a 1000Wh/kg AlS battery that costs a few dollars a kilo or a quad junction 45% efficient paintable PV. 'I kinda tried one of the steps but am ignoring the really hard part of separating fission products or not having it corrode' isn't proven.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar/wind/batteries/hydrogen > nuclear The way you back up your $10/W nuclear plant is with $0.50/W simple cycle turbines, which can burn hydrogen. Or maybe $1/W combined cycle, if you want to do seasonal storage.

Not true, for new nuclear (LFTR / TMSR) at least it isn't. They are safe and reliable, also their output don't allow for building weapons.. it's about as good as it gets.

Lol. Yes, bring up concepts where we don't even have the demonstrated materials, never mind operating demonstration units, and claim they will be cheap. This is totally credible! /s

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#186
post #5

>The report projected that the United States would have a cumulative total of 7.5 to 10 million metric tons of solar panel waste in 2050. This compares to 292 million tons of total landfill waste in 2018 alone [1], putting solar panel waste on the order of 0.1% of total waste produced in the US between now and 2050. [1] https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-...

There's a huge differential when it comes to processing different panel types, such as First Solar's CdTe panels (cadmium is a toxic heavy metal) versus the monocrystalline silicon panels that China is making (apparently only China has managed to scale up monocrystalline silicon, with the machines as tightly held secrets as ASML's EUV systems). You'd think that would be a primary point of discussion in any article on…

That is because CdTe is actually a stable molecule that isn’t water soluble, turns out the problem of panels from a toxic leeching perspective is largely from the small amounts of lead used at soldering points which is a common point with most silicon PV panels.

No reason tin can’t be used instead/lead free panels can’t be made except for the saving of a few pennies by skimping on the solder - no regulations to ensure they should be lead free. Unfortunately waste processing decades into the future isn’t often accounted for and those few pennies at design time add up across hundreds of thousands of panels on a single site…

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#187

On a side note, why aren't governments providing rebates so people start putting solar panels everywhere? Like, by now, considering we're facing major environmental catastrophe without seriously drastic action, wouldn't it just be wise to put panels almost everywhere there is at least sunshine for a decent part of the year. Like what are we doing? ha I'm trying to buy a block of land next door with a decent sized she…

> On a side note, why aren't governments providing rebates so people start putting solar panels everywhere?

In most places they did. They worked. Now it's time to wind them down either legislate renters' rights to their roof space or start subsidizing other things like low environmental impact batteries or tidal.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#188
post #6

>If solar panels can last 40 to 50 years, which is roughly double what used to be the rule of thumb for their life span Presumably, these panels face ever diminishing efficiencies. What is the threshold where it makes sense to replace a working, but low efficiency panel with a new one? That is, if a field of ancient generation-1 panels is operating at 5% efficiency, is it worth the expense to tear them out and replac…

Hawaii, near southern point, has a road with one side abandoned windmills. At least mines in USA have a reclamation plan and bond to pay for it. https://advertiser-tribune.com/news/191061/trip-to-hawaii-re...

Oh look. It's a lie. Article dated 2019 about something that had been decomissined for 7 years (and were not even abandoned to begin with but in the process of being replaced and then investigated for reopening).

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2012/03/31/turbines-come-dow...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-bxSO82qI

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most commercially viable cells use silver front side metallization (or both sides for bifacial). This represents about 50g/kW net of silver depending on location, but there are methods in the production pipeline to reduce it to 25g/kW. Tandem cells will reduce it to less silver than a control rod uses, but the commercialisationnpathway isn't set in stone yet. Worst case scenario, we hit silver limits, they get switch…

Or switch to copper for the contact wires, with a Ni or Mo barrier layer (about 1 micron thick) to prevent the copper from reacting with the silicon.

I believe there is already a few 10s of nm thick layer of indium in production processes for that purpose (or to stabilize bonding?).

Copper metallization works (usually with a nickel layer and a silver electroplate on top which uses substantially less Ag than a nuclear reactor of the same net power), but is presently considered cost prohibitive process-wise as it adds a few steps. The current process being rolled out is silver plated copper paste (each copper bead has a 10-30% silver coating) as well as some techs for laying it down more consistently (aligned screen printing where the line never crosses two layers of mesh, and once it matures, depositing it with laser).

Silver consumption may briefly increase if the above facilitate a switch to heterojunction or topcon cells, but as soon as one of the 3 tandem chemistries being tried per day shows itself as a winner the voltage will increase and the fingers will get significantly smaller (to the point where Al may not cause a shading problem). At that point the shills will start whining about a 100nm thick layer of lead containing molecules while ignoring that it's less lead than your average tuna.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Al, Si and trace amounts of silver have no health or environmental hazard, and the silver is the valuable bit. Please stop gas lighting based on obsolete technology that was only briefly popular in one country.

Inhaling solid $anything dust is a health and environment hazard. Si dust probably isn't asbestos bad, but wouldn't want to breathe it in either.

Well don't go within 10km of a road then. Brake disks are full of it, and pads have much worse. Then there's all the ground up rubber, bitumen and glass. If anything the filtered outlet vent of a recycling facility would reduce this.
Post reply on HN