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The real reason you can't hire developers....

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Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#231
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I expect to get paid $115K to lead a team as a senior developer, but don't want to relocate in order to be with the team. He targeted companies that claim to accommodate telecommuting. Not hire when being asked looks sneaky.

How often does telecommuting really jive with a senior/leadership position? If you're just coding away then sure I can see telecommuting being very viable. If part of your job is earning the respect of a team and being able to drive them and steer them in a direction, then not being physically there could very well be a huge barrier. Not to mention only really wanting telecommuting does potentially imply less commitm…

I've been an intercontinental telecommuter for several years now, in a senior individual contributor role, and it has worked out quite well overall.

A friend of mine for a while managed a small non-telecommuting team as a telecommuter, but went back to an individual contributor role after that.

His theory was that telecommuting for an individual works if that individual has a "telecommuting mindset" (self driven, communicative, etc). In order for telecommuting to work for a manager, all his subordinates need a "telecommuting mindset" as well.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#232
Some things from your post are spot on! Especially the riddles. Seriously, you got to tell me how many people deal with riddles in your day to day programming jobs? Do you pick up blank sheets of paper and work on puzzles a considerable part of the day.

Even if you were, I would personally never want to work at a place which has this kind of a culture. I am out looking for a job where good business problems get solved in the most practical way. Which helps both the business and me make money.

Second kind of questions are asking the candidate arcane and rare facts that can be known only through rote memorization. Like asking him to work on some concept/data structure/algorithm from a CS text book taught in semester 3 on page 345 of a text book 2000 pages big.

There is nothing great about knowing an algorithm, inventing a new algorithm is special but not knowing one. Worse case anybody can know what you know by searching.

Asking irrelevant questions to the job, gives you a very high rate of false negatives. You are missing out on some very good and productive people.

This is exactly what happens, you ask some irrelevant questions and consider the guy useless. The same guy goes works at some php shop which is solving some business problems which get him and the company good money. And here you are searching and filtering candidate as per your requirements. Meanwhile you see, your start up failing and the average guy there winning. Suddenly you shout out 'Worse is better'.

You've got be brutally honest and practical in software engineering. If you are academics its a different game.

Remember your fantasy elitism in building a dream product and plans to hire rock stars to do it is nothing if it fails. The average guy still ends up winning even if he has 1/10 decent the product of your dreams, if he has a product to sell now.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#233

The reason companies can't hire good people is because good people already have good jobs, and many of these companies suffer from "sticker shock" when they see how much money good developers are already making. I recently interviewed at a major online retailer and cloud computing provider (heh). The person interviewing me said, "wow, you're the best person of the last 50 we've interviewed". They followed up by makin…

Exactly,

One more important thing to notice here. There is a strange assumption that goes on, its considered if you are awesome and passionate you won't care about money and will always for little.

The attitude is like - "Greed for money is for bad people, but you are not that kind right? So, here come work for peanuts while some idiot is making twice as you".

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#234

I'm going to say it because it seems no one else is. I apologize ahead of time for my brutal honesty. You need to consider the possibility that you're not as competent as you believe yourself to be. Dunning-Kruger[0] is real, and your post doesn't demonstrate the self-awareness the best developers seem to possess. Your writing is sprinkled with emoticons and rife with reduplicated punctuation, both of which (especial…

While we're waxing psychological, I should also point out the Just World bias[1]. Sometimes , capable people have difficulty getting jobs they're qualified for due to reasons outside their control. And having been on both sides of the table, I can say that identifying good developers is hardly a precise science (I mean, you're judging him based on emoticons and whether you see any token modesty), and many if not most…

* Sometimes, capable people have difficulty getting jobs they're qualified for due to reasons outside their control.*.

This and some people just suck at the interview process. Ive been praised in the past for the quality of teams I've built. I think I'm good at hiring. That being said a few times when ive been an interviewer (not the hiring manager) I've tried to talk people out of hiring people who ended up being rockstars. I've also had other managers try to talk me out of hiring some folks I've been sold on who ended up being rockstars themselves.

Point being that hiring is a very inexact science. Sometimes when the bar is set high qualified people slip through the cracks. It's a hiring "cost". Sometimes you just do the best you can with an inexact science.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#235
post #159

I'm going to say it because it seems no one else is. I apologize ahead of time for my brutal honesty. You need to consider the possibility that you're not as competent as you believe yourself to be. Dunning-Kruger[0] is real, and your post doesn't demonstrate the self-awareness the best developers seem to possess. Your writing is sprinkled with emoticons and rife with reduplicated punctuation, both of which (especial…

You said you found the writing style immature, but have you considered the job ads of the companies OP might have applied to? "Xbox's PS3 Nerf guns Starcraft/Rock band competitions !!!".. How mature is that? I am not talking about the 20% interviews where it didn't workout, but the other 80% where there was no reply, I am sure many of those job ads won't classify as "Mature" in your view. Some of the best programmers…

I completely agree with all your arguments except for one , writing proper English is really a skill that a developer need to have. On this post http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CollegeAdvice.html the first advice that Joe gives to the college student is Learn to Communicate and he has some good arguments for it. I too am not a native English speaker by the way.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, $115k for a senior engineer? Really great "entry level" (i.e. recently graduated but mostly self taught with lots of internships under belt) is going for $110k... most of the "seniors" I know are running $200k plus.

I think its a bit lower then that if you want to work at a start-up. We're paying Mid-Senior level from $120-150 (Full Stack). I vet hundreds of resumes a month, and we're pretty average / ahead of the game. My kid brother just graduated CS from Berkeley and got offers ranging from 70-85, plus equity, benefits etc. Still high, but not quite $110k...

Er... "just graduated" and "Senior Developer with 8 years experience" are different tiers.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#237

I'm going to say it because it seems no one else is. I apologize ahead of time for my brutal honesty. You need to consider the possibility that you're not as competent as you believe yourself to be. Dunning-Kruger[0] is real, and your post doesn't demonstrate the self-awareness the best developers seem to possess. Your writing is sprinkled with emoticons and rife with reduplicated punctuation, both of which (especial…

Right, but this sort of informal enthusiasm is normal in the Ruby world, whereas it would grate in a Python or C++ environment.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#238
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good post except I don't think the OP is complaining about having problems getting hired. The companies trying to hire are the ones having problems, and it seems they're doing little to fix them.

Do you think responding to email blasts would help them solve their hiring problem?

What on earth? These are companies that are paying money advertising to find developers. The idea that it is too much trouble for them to evaluate or respond to emails from potential candidates is rather bizarre.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#239

A lot of companies have a permenant jobs page just to have the appearance of growth, but aren't really hiring.

Definitely true. Candidates can often use archive.org to evaluate how long a position has been listed. If it's more than a few months, it's most likely not a real position. (Where real position means they are actively trying to fill it by doing things such as replying to inquiries, phone screening, bringing people in to interview, and extending offers.)

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#240
post #62
post #47

For what it's worth, I'm involved in the hiring process at chartboost.com. (Company tripled in employee size the past couple months!) When we get a resume / inquiry from somebody who wants to work remotely, it's instant rejection. Telecommuting is a long debate whose scope is outside of this discussion, but for a lot of companies that's a tough sell. Especially at 115k.

Sorry to hear that, I once read a quote that said hiring is about getting the best person available in your market at the time you are looking for them. There are two constraints there both of them hinged on time, the first being the developers timing of being on the market and the second being your timing of need for the position. Both of those conspire against you in your ability to find the best person. When I rea…

I like the points you make. Working remotely is how product development and many other tasks that require highly skilled professionals is getting done in 2011. Working out of offices every day of the week is an archaic practice.

A bit over ten years ago I worked briefly at a company that didn't have internet access for the employees, so people had to write down things they needed to look up on paper and then look it up at home when they got back from work. The company, which had been around for decades and was an engineering shop, predictably went bankrupt because they were not able to adapt to modern conditions. You have to be able to keep up if you are going to work in the tech industry. This applies to companies even more so than employees.

Companies that can't handle working remotely in 2011 are exactly the same. They are dinosaurs and are becoming completely irrelevant. It's no wonder they can't even respond to emails, they are hopelessly confused and mired in the past.

This whole conversation will seem absurd in the post oil future where driving back and forth to work each day when it's completely unnecessary is seen as madness. Face to face interactions? What sort of argument is that anyway. We have had that for a while now through videophones. Almost everything that can be done in an office can be done in a home office. Even 3D prototype fabrication and hardware development is being done remotely.

When a company says they can't handle people working remotely the right response is stunned silence, and then the observation they sure as heck better get that fixed pronto. It's not like it's even difficult to do, it's dead simple and doesn't even cost anything extra. There is simply no excuse for such a level of backwardness in a tech company in this day and age. What's next? Eschewing electricity?

People from more than 3/4 of all the countries in the world took classes at Stanford this quarter and none of them even knew if the professor was wearing pants because everything was remote. Laptops have been around for decades. Video conferencing for several years, IM for decades, collaborative white boards and editing software. Bugtracking and version control are all on the web. What on earth is going on at these companies that they don't know about what is going on? Even hospitals are getting xrays evaluated overseas. Customer support calls from someone in Texas are routed to a customer service rep working out of his kitchen in Ireland. Idle fast food employees at the 10am slump in Idaho are taking orders for the lunch crowd rush at 12 noon for a sister restaurant in Atlanta.

Here's a prediction that is so right I'm calling it a fact. Any tech company at the cusp of 2012 that doesn't have remote employees is on life support. If they can't fix that, I absolutely guarantee you that company is not going to be around 3 years from now. They just aren't. Any skeptics about this, let's check back right here in this comment in 2015 and see who got it right. Will there be any tech companies with no remote employees (other than sole proprietorships with no employees) in 2015? I say no.

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