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FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

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Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#211
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully understand the purported chain of events. But, again: the US does not have jurisdiction over FTX. So why would he "get arrested" in California for embezzlement? He didn't break any US laws. The FTX/Alameda deal was likely done via SAFT[1], which is both legal and popular. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/simple-agreement-future...

Does FTX international have any US investors? This would be a theft of their funds too, right?

It does, but those investors were breaking FTX ToS by using the site (you had to use a VPN to access it).

I'm not sure if the SEC has standing for American investors that pretended to not be American.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#212
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only tangentially related, but don't put cash in safety deposit boxes. Police can take them under civil forfeiture laws: https://nypost.com/2021/06/12/fbi-aims-to-keep-valuables-86m... https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-raid-1400-boxes-us-priva...

Civil asset forfeiture is one of those things that feels really unjust in the US, and I'm somewhat surprised there hasn't been a Supreme Court case ruling it unconstitutional per the 4th Amendment. I'd love to hear a steelmanned argument in favor of it, maybe I'm missing something obvious?

[deleted]

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#213
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the FDIC can afford to do that because there are laws dictating liquidity requirements to banks and disclosure requirements to inspect and enforce those rules.

It’s almost as if our existing financial system, built upon the lessons from hundreds of years, is worthwhile! :-)

It's been funny to watch crypto basically speedrun the entire monetary system from Rai stones all the way to calls for central banking.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#214
post #13

The Twitter thread from SBF is even better where he admits he messed up. And still trying to throw jabs at Binance here and there like it’s their fault they’re here. Unbelievable.

In case anyone wants a link to the thread, here it is: https://twitter.com/SBF_FTX/status/1590709166515310593?s=20&... It was actually in an adjacent paywalled article ( https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-news-today-11-... ). If anyone knows a way to bypass that paywall, I'd be curious to read the rest.

That article is miniscule and mostly just links to the tweets. After the 3 sentence preview which is visible to anyone it has 1 more sentence (a quote from SBF) then "Other highlights from his series of tweets" followed by 5 short 1 sentence bullet points summarizing things from the tweets. Then an embed of the first tweet wraps it up.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#215
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If FTX were a real company that Tweet would be enough to be put in handcuffs by the SEC.

That's assuming SEC enforce their own rules, they are often... Subjective and reactive.

Because the law isn't computer code and there are always grey lines. From Matt Levine:

>But there are also a lot of places in securities law where the rules are a little bit vague and you are operating a little bit on the cutting edge and the best practice is to pick up the phone and call the SEC staff and say “hey what do you think about this?” Sometimes this is fairly formalized: The SEC staff issues “no-action letters” (you send them a letter saying “is it okay if we do this,” and they send back a letter saying “if you do that, we probably won’t sue you,” which is almost as good as them saying “yes”) and “telephone interpretations” (you call them up and ask “is it okay if we do this,” they say “sure seems fine” or “no that’s bad,” and then they write down the question and answer so other people with the same question don’t have to ask it again). These are places where the rules are unclear, or they are clear but applying them as written would create bad results, so the solution is to ask the SEC “is it okay if we do this” and they just tell you.

>Crypto people want rules! I don’t mean that they want to be regulated; I mean, specifically, that they want rules. They want published, objectively specified, open and transparent rules, so that everyone is on a level playing field to do crypto stuff that complies with whatever the rules are. I don’t mean that everyone in crypto wants that: Informal regulation favors the well-capitalized and the incumbent, and if you’re a big crypto firm on good terms with the SEC (which might be an empty set) you might prefer informality and opacity. I just mean that, philosophically, crypto people should want open transparent rules for permissionless innovation. That is how the crypto system is designed to work, and they should want the securities laws to work the same way. And in fact Coinbase Global Inc., which is maybe the closest thing the US crypto industry has to a big regulated incumbent, has sent the SEC a petition asking it to make rules for crypto securities.

>Temperamentally I do not think the SEC likes this, and I think that Gensler means what he says about “working directly with entrepreneurs,” and I think that this is a reasoned choice. Look at how crypto often works in practice. People write smart contracts with immutable public code, and then other people hack them to steal their money. That could be the SEC! If you are the SEC, and crypto people say “please write clear transparent rules so we know what is and isn’t allowed,” you might hear that as “please write clear transparent rules so that we can game them.” This would be a reasonable lesson for the SEC to take from (1) the history of crypto’s “code is law” philosophy ending in hacks, (2) the history of crypto firms ignoring the US securities laws, and for that matter (3) the history of traditional finance firms trying to game the SEC’s rules. Crypto is a wholly new area for US securities regulation, and if you try to write all the rules from scratch in one go you will get things wrong. And then people will ruthlessly exploit whatever you get wrong.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/securities-law/matt-levines-mo...

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#216
How ironic that crypto bros (like me) want a libertarian-yet-democratic user-owned form of currency without government intrusion, and then something like FTX not being overseen by the government tanks all cryptos.

When pretty much any company or industry gets to a certain valuation size, it seems that oversight is an absolute requirement lest things go south quickly, whether intentional or negligent. Government oversight isn't a guarantee of fair play, but it can lessen the risk.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#218
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SBF tweeted[1] not too long ago that FTX.us was safe and was 100% liquid. I suppose that wasn't the case? [1] https://twitter.com/SBF_FTX/status/1590709195892195329?t=tQR...

If FTX were a real company that Tweet would be enough to be put in handcuffs by the SEC.

SEC only enforces the law via civil means, so they do not do handcuffs. Handcuffs would be FBI territory.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like a very Adam Neumann move.

Sequoia did a nauseating, hilarious puff piece on him a couple months ago and this guy sounds like Adam Neumann’s second coming. https://www.sequoiacap.com/article/sam-bankman-fried-spotlig...

[deleted]

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#220
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only tangentially related, but don't put cash in safety deposit boxes. Police can take them under civil forfeiture laws: https://nypost.com/2021/06/12/fbi-aims-to-keep-valuables-86m... https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-raid-1400-boxes-us-priva...

Civil asset forfeiture is one of those things that feels really unjust in the US, and I'm somewhat surprised there hasn't been a Supreme Court case ruling it unconstitutional per the 4th Amendment. I'd love to hear a steelmanned argument in favor of it, maybe I'm missing something obvious?

The only steelmanned argument for civil asset forfeiture goes back to its origins, when it was used to seize smuggled goods on ships. Since the ship's owner was almost always a wealthy person living in a different country making them almost impossible to go after, and the smuggled goods were missing tax stamps etc. making it clear that they were being illegally smuggled, the government would simply seize the goods. That's literally the origin of civil asset forfeiture in the US, and all of the horrible and unjustifiable examples of it that we see nowadays grew out of that much more limited and justifiable example.
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