The real reason you can't hire developers.... • Hacker News Board

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#201

Post by thoughtsimple » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 9:45 PM UTC

ay wrote: post #109

thoughtsimple wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently had an interview with a company that involved 6 people interviewing me serially. That sort of thing is grueling in the best of cases. But this one went south with the third interviewer. He seemed to me be someone with something like Aspergers syndrome. He talked in a monotone, fidgeted constantly and was rocking back and forth. While I have no problem working with anyone technically competent, this person…

"...6 people interviewing me serially. That sort of thing is grueling..." This sort of thing is a standard process in many companies - precisely to avoid the single-person bias mentioned in other post. Besides, the interviewers (in the properly organized case) are usually one's future coworkers - and if you did not like them maybe working there would not have been a good idea for you to begin with. "...didn't have mu…

Well I guess if your goal is to have me not take the job but to have a "co-worker" learn then they accomplished their goal. If it wasn't that, then having a bad interviewer on his own was a complete waste of my time and of the other 5 people who I interviewed with that day.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#202

Post by rbrcurtis » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 9:46 PM UTC

efsavage wrote: post #195

bigohms wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And looking back on the posters comment history, I would tend to agree. There is tons of absolutes, argumentation and quite a lack of tact.

Maybe I'm similar, but I can say that based on comments I've seen here I'd be far more likely to email jemfinch back than up_and_up.

I think it really depends on the company you are hiring for. At my present one, personality is absolutely as important as skill, so if you sound like a pretentious snob we probably won't be interested in you. At my last company (a fortune 500), if you sounded like the OP, we definitely wouldn't get back to you.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#203

Post by omarchowdhury » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 9:53 PM UTC

zasz wrote: post #155

up_and_up wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol. I said "tome". As in a lengthy diatribe. The "tone" of your comment seemed fine.

I thought you'd made a typo. A "tome" is a heavy book, not a lengthy diatribe. The book could be a lengthy diatribe, but it could also be an annotated edition of The Odyssey. I suppose you could have called a long comment a "tome" out of playfulness, but it wasn't the clearest choice of words.

The tone in his usage of the word tome reminds me of tl;dr, or rather, tl; did read but will not argue your points.

Although the original post does come off as ad hominem.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#204

Post by dabent » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 9:56 PM UTC

guynamedloren wrote: post #188

You're not trying hard enough. www.lorenburton.com - Airbnb flew me from CHI to SF less than 24 hours after I put the site up, with absolutely no existing connections or contacts.

I certainly agree with the idea of doing a side project. Mine wasn't a resume, but it was something I was trying to turn into a startup. That alone got me lots of interviews.

I went through the "Who's Hiring" thread on HN for a couple of months and wrote custom emails to of companies at places I'd like to work and was willing to immediately relocate to. Mailing folks through the HN thread worked MUCH better than hitting the HR slush pile. The side project I developed served as a catalyst to get me into many interviews, even if it was just for a phone screen. Eventually I landed a great position at my current employer.

In summary, develop something you can show people that's the direct result of your efforts. Be willing to show them source code. Also get right through to someone who can get things done. The Who's Hiring thread is a great way to do that and works much better than HR submissions. Another source (and the one that eventually worked for me) was programming conferences. I found my current position at PyCon.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#205

Post by thoughtsimple » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 9:59 PM UTC

SeoxyS wrote: post #103

thoughtsimple wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He clearly said that he targeted companies claiming that they accommodate telecommuting. >Especially at 115k. If you think $115k is a lot for a senior position in SF, you are going to have trouble finding good people.

It's a lot for a remote employee. For a good senior on-site dev I'd gladly pay that, or more.

OK, then I don't get it. Why do you want to pay a remote employee less than on-site? This is assuming that your company was amenable to the idea in the first place.

The employee off site is actually cheaper than on-site. Theoretically, you should be willing to pay more, not less.

If the employee is not manageable off-site then you have a problem but an offer can be made conditionally that the first 3 months are a trial and if it doesn't work, then you are canned.

Why is off-site worth less money?

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#206

Post by aiurtourist » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 10:01 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #162

aiurtourist wrote: post #137

LESSON: riddle/puzzles/challenges might seem cool to you but might just seem like another hoop to me. I understand this sentiment, but pre-interview homework (provided that it's reasonable) is one of the best indicators of enthusiasm, attention to detail, creativity, and ballpark of coding skill. Most importantly it reveals how you will react to solving one of our problems which, if hired, is what you'll be doing mos…

The problem with that is that you then end up in the second pile when we sort job offers (and at present there are plenty of jobs) -- and we know it so we know that your employees are more likely to be second rate, the kind who couldn't get a job at the non-hoop companies. And who really want to work with second-rate programmers? Of course if you are Google, Facebook or another company as well know (or potentionally…

The problem with that is that you then end up in the second pile when we sort job offers (and at present there are plenty of jobs) -- and we know it so we know that your employees are more likely to be second rate, the kind who couldn't get a job at the non-hoop companies.

No programming interview process is perfect, and the small homework assignment should be accompanied by due diligence on both sides — technical interviewing by the company, background research of the company and/or founders by the candidate, etc. Interpreting a small, reasonable homework assignment as a sign that the company only hires second-rate programmers is a fast jump to a very pessimistic conclusion.

That said, one recent candidate wrote us very angrily that he was pursuing N other companies and didn't have time to do any "silly" homework assignment. He claimed that the very-domain-specific, open-source project he maintains should be enough of a coding example. I felt that was fine; if he didn't want to spent a small amount of time to complete a small request from us (and possibly show off a little) and return the favor the time _we_, a company of <10 people, were spending on _him_, it probably wasn't a good fit anyway.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#207

Post by marshray » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 10:03 PM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #172

dexen wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (...) most of the "seniors" I know are running $200k plus. Guess asking half the market rate was a serious blunder. Makes OP seem unfamiliar with current salaries of senior-level devs -- and so HR drones assumed he doesn't have any recent senior-level experience.

I'd love to know where seniors command a market rate of $200k+. (Possibly if you figure in benefits, bonuses, etc. - but a salary of $200k+ is still not that easy to get)

Hint: Look at places where 3br houses start at $750K.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#208

Post by wyclif » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 10:04 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #76

I think the fundamental problem is that companies want a "Sr. Software Engineer" with >7 years of development and >4 years of development in their particular language, who also is young enough to think that "Nerf guns" and "xbox's" [sic] are an appealing "Benefit" and that aren't going to ask anywhere near $115k a year. (a totally reasonable salary, by the way, but I think you lose edge in negotiations by putting tha…

I can do no better than to quote the inestimable David "Pardo" Keppel:

There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money.

If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#209

Post by mrchess » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 10:06 PM UTC

It took me 2.5 months to interview start to finish with a several mil backed startup, and I had to constantly bother them to set up my interviews despite they had a person recruiting full time. Compare this with an top company in the valley I interviewed with and the process was streamlined and only 1 month. Both included on-site interviews.

I think the problem is every startup is making up their own hiring formula/process, and until it is internally figured out, anyone who tries to interview will get delayed. Product is being developed PLUS they have to figure out their perfect hiring process... That being said, luck with timing is also important in interviewing for a startup IMO.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#210

Post by mjwalshe » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 10:08 PM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #67

The plural of API is APIs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interfa... When hiring devs, I definitely look for language skill and attention to detail in syntax. A buggy cover letter or resume suggests buggy code.

mm so the Google developers who put their names to the published APIS are out of luck then :-0