The real reason you can't hire developers.... • Hacker News Board

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#101

Post by mping » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:29 PM UTC

bengl3rt wrote: post #91

nirvana wrote: post #76

I think the fundamental problem is that companies want a "Sr. Software Engineer" with >7 years of development and >4 years of development in their particular language, who also is young enough to think that "Nerf guns" and "xbox's" [sic] are an appealing "Benefit" and that aren't going to ask anywhere near $115k a year. (a totally reasonable salary, by the way, but I think you lose edge in negotiations by putting tha…

Also, $115k for a senior engineer? Really great "entry level" (i.e. recently graduated but mostly self taught with lots of internships under belt) is going for $110k... most of the "seniors" I know are running $200k plus.

You tell me who they are, I'll be sending my CV right away. I'm guessing half of the recruiting work is getting in the right networks...

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#102

Post by daly » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:29 PM UTC

I agree. I have been on the interview trail for 10 months and do not get responses to either emails or phone calls. I have a masters degree, loads of experience, and a strong work ethic. I have a patent, have published cited papers, and have 4 commercial languages I co-authored. I am a lead developer on 3 open source projects, one of which contains about a million lines of code. All I see are "ninja/super/god-like" developer ads. Something is broken somewhere.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#103

Post by SeoxyS » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:30 PM UTC

thoughtsimple wrote: post #86

SeoxyS wrote: post #47

For what it's worth, I'm involved in the hiring process at chartboost.com. (Company tripled in employee size the past couple months!) When we get a resume / inquiry from somebody who wants to work remotely, it's instant rejection. Telecommuting is a long debate whose scope is outside of this discussion, but for a lot of companies that's a tough sell. Especially at 115k.

He clearly said that he targeted companies claiming that they accommodate telecommuting. >Especially at 115k. If you think $115k is a lot for a senior position in SF, you are going to have trouble finding good people.

It's a lot for a remote employee. For a good senior on-site dev I'd gladly pay that, or more.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#104

Post by jarek » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:33 PM UTC

mason55 wrote: post #45

shadowfiend wrote: post #21

Specifically in response to the time gaps: it's true that time gaps are bad, but keep in mind these are startups, which means they're juggling about twenty thousand different things at the same time. I think in that domain in particular, some slack may be in order as compared to a 20,000-strong corporation with a dedicated HR department. Re: weird extra steps: the idea isn't that they're cool. The idea is that if you…

Re: weird extra steps: the idea isn't that they're cool. The idea is that if you are willing to attempt it and solve it successfully, it says something about your problem-solving skills. It's not the be-all end-all, but it seems like a decent first-pass filter. The problem is that you're asking candidates to spend 1+ hour before you've even given them a personal response. I've seen positions with well known companies…

I've had a company give me a written hour-long (easy) test followed by a several-hour-long coding assignment without contact from anyone technical. (Both administered by a secretary/office manager - I appreciate them tons but not when I'm trying to get a sense for your technical organization.) Sorry, I don't think so.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#105

Post by cunac » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:34 PM UTC

giltotherescue wrote: post #14

Your salary expectations are awful high for a telecommute position. Next time you could consider letting them warm up to you before throwing that out. Also, how can you have expertise in "a bunch of other stuff"? The point of expertise is focus. Maybe the 40/50 are reading your email. How do you know they are not deciding up front that you're not the right fit?

Why would you think that salary has to be lower for telecommuting position ? Premise is it will be same quality of work as on site so should be same and company saves on office, space equipment etc..

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#106

Post by up_and_up » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:35 PM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #100

waterlesscloud wrote: post #35

A lot of comments here miss the point. 80% did not respond at all . They did not acknowledge his contact attempt in any way whatsoever. Not a canned response confirming contact, nothing. Nothing. I'm willing to bet very heavily on this representing complete incompetence at the organizations contacted.

I think there's an underlying issue here. I would wager that 4/5 of job postings are for internally filled positions, especially with larger enterprises with heavy HR involvement. Let's say MegaCorp Inc. wants to promote Billy, a great Jr. developer, into a senior role for a new project. The deal is done when the manager says "Billy, I want you to be the Sr. developer for X project." The thing is that HR gets in the…

Thats a really good point in general. The issue is none of the 50 companies included MegaCorp or the like and based on my experience at startups I'm guessing HR is non-existent at most of them.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#107

Post by Timothee » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:37 PM UTC

bengl3rt wrote: post #91

nirvana wrote: post #76

I think the fundamental problem is that companies want a "Sr. Software Engineer" with >7 years of development and >4 years of development in their particular language, who also is young enough to think that "Nerf guns" and "xbox's" [sic] are an appealing "Benefit" and that aren't going to ask anywhere near $115k a year. (a totally reasonable salary, by the way, but I think you lose edge in negotiations by putting tha…

Also, $115k for a senior engineer? Really great "entry level" (i.e. recently graduated but mostly self taught with lots of internships under belt) is going for $110k... most of the "seniors" I know are running $200k plus.

It's funny how every single time there are discussions of salary on HN, there will be wild differences in opinion. You're saying an entry level engineer is getting $110k while some comments later are saying $115k seems high for a senior engineer.

I never know where the truth lies…

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#108

Post by travem » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:38 PM UTC

shadowfiend wrote: post #60

steverb wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about IBM, but I have worked in several large well established companies and when someone (decent) quits everyone looks around to figure out WTF is going on. I have lived through 2 mass exoduses, where a company started going downhill and the top 50% of developers all leave within 6 months of each other (often in groups). There is nothing inherently special about a startup. Many established companies hav…

That's actually fair. After I walked away from the keyboard I realized I was probably unfair to larger corporations. That said, I feel like someone leaving a 5-person company is usually a bigger deal than someone leaving a 20-person team in a 20,000 strong company. Would you disagree?

At the company level I think you are right, at the team level if feels similar (at least in my experience). I guess I will caveat that by saying that the teams where I worked were well established units who worked closely on the same projects together. In companies where the teams are constantly rearranged I imagine there is more of a disconnect from you colleagues.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#109

Post by ay » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:41 PM UTC

thoughtsimple wrote: post #64

gatlin wrote: post #23

I applied to a kind-of sinking ship in Palo Alto last year. Got through a few interviews, answered all the questions right, and was gently let down. It was a stab in the dark. My friend who worked there (and, in fact, recommended me) told me the developer doing the interviews has never actually recommended a single candidate and is no longer allowed to do interviews. This could still mean that I'm stupid and incompet…

I recently had an interview with a company that involved 6 people interviewing me serially. That sort of thing is grueling in the best of cases. But this one went south with the third interviewer. He seemed to me be someone with something like Aspergers syndrome. He talked in a monotone, fidgeted constantly and was rocking back and forth. While I have no problem working with anyone technically competent, this person…

"...6 people interviewing me serially. That sort of thing is grueling..."

This sort of thing is a standard process in many companies - precisely to avoid the single-person bias mentioned in other post.

Besides, the interviewers (in the properly organized case) are usually one's future coworkers - and if you did not like them maybe working there would not have been a good idea for you to begin with.

"...didn't have much enthusiasm for the next 3 interviews..." - this is your mistake. You should have treated them totally indepentently, and possibly asked the other interviewers about the incorrect question. Chances are they'd corrected that guy during the offline discussion.

"A company that would allow someone with social interaction issues run an interview is very problematic." - not at all. They gave that person a chance to learn. They gave you a chance to preview your future coworkers and make a decision.

I think multi-person interviews are a critical part of getting a good atmosphere in the team.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#110

Post by lanstein » Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 5:42 PM UTC

gatlin wrote: post #23

I applied to a kind-of sinking ship in Palo Alto last year. Got through a few interviews, answered all the questions right, and was gently let down. It was a stab in the dark. My friend who worked there (and, in fact, recommended me) told me the developer doing the interviews has never actually recommended a single candidate and is no longer allowed to do interviews. This could still mean that I'm stupid and incompet…

This wasn't Ning, was it?