My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal • Hacker News Board

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#201

Post by twic » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #6

A lot of this feels a little "glutton for punishment". Like, they keep f*cking with him yet he continues to interact..

Reading this account, written from a position of hindsight, absolutely.

But when you're in the thick of it, involved with a project you really want to succeed, and which has an impact on your reputation, it is so, so easy to convince yourself that it's all a misunderstanding and you just need to keep trying. Particularly if you are a good-hearted person yourself. I've certainly suffered from this (and very few people who know me would agree that i need to be more of an arsehole!).

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#202

Post by pixl97 » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #189

fleddr wrote: post #178

This Mick Gordon guy has to be the most patient, understanding and abuse-tolerant person on the planet. Even after getting screwed over 30 times in a row he still was hopeful for a reasonable ending. I express that as a compliment, even if in the real world it works against you. It's not the main topic, but I like to call out attention to this: "incidences of online abuse escalated at an alarming rate as Marty’s Redd…

I also really wonder WTF is wrong with people. Even children should know to not harass someone for any reason, let alone that perhaps that person had conflict while working on a game they enjoy. I cannot imagine ever going after someone like that, under any circumstance.

Some people when given anonymity have no bounds on their behaviors.

That's why many systems and programs fail, because we can only imagine how bad we are, and not how insanely awful the worst of us can act.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#203

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:22 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #198

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delayed or never received payments are common for video game freelancers. Most projects fail, and so the likelihood you don't get paid out for a portion of your work is very high. You just have to eat it and set your rates accordingly. iD/Zennimax are big enough there's no excuse here, but as far as mentality anyone that's been freelancing in games has probably crossed over into this territory of just hoping the clie…

If it’s so common why don’t the well known freelancers insist on upfront payments?

These contracts are very asymmetric in negotiating power. That's actually true of gaming in general: as both an artist or coder you'll almost certainly make more money and have a much better work life balance outside of gaming. Freelancers are even more disposable.

Basically, people who wanna make games do so mostly out of personal passion, and that means they get pretty screwed in negotiating compensation.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#204

Post by agentwiggles » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

barbariangrunge wrote: post #144

agentwiggles wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked Eternal, I know that a lot of people felt the new mechanics were too much of a departure from 2016, and I'm sympathetic to that, but I had a hell of fun time beating the game on Nightmare. It turns it into something like Hotline Miami, where there's a room full of guys who can kill you almost immediately, so you wind up playing the encounter over and over until you have the perfect path of devastation through…

They added too many mechanical things to fiddle with and it drowned out the positional combat aspect. It felt like playing starcraft in the mid to late game

It definitely gets more mechanically heavy in the late game, in a way that kinda diminishes the pure combatness of the whole thing. At first it feels sorta like "you've given me a small set of murder tools, and I need to use them to build a glorious rampage", and towards the end you have so many options that it feels less artful. I still had fun but I definitely understand the thrust of the criticism - especially given how perfectly DOOM 2016 lets you compose a symphony of destruction with just the guns you have.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#205

Post by MichaelZuo » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #203

MichaelZuo wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s so common why don’t the well known freelancers insist on upfront payments?

These contracts are very asymmetric in negotiating power. That's actually true of gaming in general: as both an artist or coder you'll almost certainly make more money and have a much better work life balance outside of gaming. Freelancers are even more disposable. Basically, people who wanna make games do so mostly out of personal passion, and that means they get pretty screwed in negotiating compensation.

How does that stop them from negotiating a lower rate, but paid upfront?

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#206

Post by JohnBooty » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #182

JohnBooty wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to say, and important to do, but also hard to do. These relationships always have a hugely asymmetrical power balance. As a contractor your reputation is so critical and the games industry is a small place. And there are far more artists than jobs.

Contracts are in actuality tend to be based on trust. The contract probably said the payment was due when tracks were approved. If iD drags their feet on approving the tracks, then Mick is in trouble. If the contract were instead structured payment on delivery, then iD is in trouble if Mick delivers substandard work. Even if Marty's side of the story were 100% true (which seems doubtful), throwing a hissy-fit on Redd…

    If iD drags their feet on approving the tracks, 
    then Mick is in trouble.

    If the contract were instead structured payment 
    on delivery, then iD is in trouble if Mick delivers 
    substandard work.

Thank you for stating this so clearly and succinctly. There are a lot of simplistic "should have had a better contract! should have had a lawyer!" etc type comments here.

Aside from extremely trivial stuff (and maybe not even then) contracts and lawyers aren't perfect magic armor for either side.

You still need both parties to act in relatively good faith or somebody is going to be screwed over to some extent.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#207

Post by moogly » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:40 PM UTC

mastax wrote: post #146

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #96

Given the presented facts and damaged professional reputation, why is this an "open letter" and not a defamation lawsuit?

It seems that Mick doesn't like getting lawyers involved, potentially to his detriment.

Indeed, lawyers will be involved now; just not on his side...

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#208

Post by jbm » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

chx wrote: post #31

jbm wrote: post #18

Already deleted from the r/doom front page despite hundreds of upvotes. Example: https://old.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/yqjvzu/mick_gordon_po...

It isn't, it's on the top of the page, heavily upvoted and awarded. It seems one of the mods deleted their account though after admitting they have friends at Bethesda. https://i.imgur.com/8E7bOoQ.jpeg https://old.reddit.com/user/Mr-R00T

It didn't show up in best, the top of the day, nor the top of the hour when I posted the above, but I am glad that it is pinned.

(I use Apollo but I was looking via the old. site; I wonder if that might be the cause?)

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#209

Post by aidenn0 » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:48 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #206

aidenn0 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracts are in actuality tend to be based on trust. The contract probably said the payment was due when tracks were approved. If iD drags their feet on approving the tracks, then Mick is in trouble. If the contract were instead structured payment on delivery, then iD is in trouble if Mick delivers substandard work. Even if Marty's side of the story were 100% true (which seems doubtful), throwing a hissy-fit on Redd…

If iD drags their feet on approving the tracks, then Mick is in trouble. If the contract were instead structured payment on delivery, then iD is in trouble if Mick delivers substandard work. Thank you for stating this so clearly and succinctly. There are a lot of simplistic "should have had a better contract! should have had a lawyer!" etc type comments here. Aside from extremely trivial stuff (and maybe not even the…

I might not have gotten it had I not seen it happen with (construction) contractors.

A sub-contractor did terrible work, and took out a mechanic's lien on our house nearly immediately after completion. One of their workers then assaulted my wife when she yelled at his mother (his mother apparently handled the finances and was trying to pressure my wife into signing something she didn't agree with about the quality of work).

On the other hand, mechanic's liens exist specifically for the case where the general contractor is not being timely with payment to subs; it's basically the only lever they have. In this case the lien was improper, and the AG told us we should sue if we didn't have evidence of it being lifted by EOD. I do wonder how many people just capitulate and pay for shoddy work just to make them go away.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#210

Post by rjbwork » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:50 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #189

fleddr wrote: post #178

This Mick Gordon guy has to be the most patient, understanding and abuse-tolerant person on the planet. Even after getting screwed over 30 times in a row he still was hopeful for a reasonable ending. I express that as a compliment, even if in the real world it works against you. It's not the main topic, but I like to call out attention to this: "incidences of online abuse escalated at an alarming rate as Marty’s Redd…

I also really wonder WTF is wrong with people. Even children should know to not harass someone for any reason, let alone that perhaps that person had conflict while working on a game they enjoy. I cannot imagine ever going after someone like that, under any circumstance.

I think it's the same phenomenon that causes road rage. Collective pseudo-anonymity (and on the internet, literally pseudonymity) causes people to act in bizarre ways. The other people who are interacting with them via that mediated interface (internet, cars on road, phone, etc.) are at some level dehumanized.

Very few people would do the kinds of things they do behind the screen or wheel of a car when sitting face to face with someone IRL.