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Trolls (2008)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Trolls (2008)

#21

Post by aidenn0 »

angersock wrote: post #6

Good post, but as someone who dabbles in trolling as a hobby, I'd like to suggest the following: Trolls are important. Trolling, especially as seen on places like slashdot/4chan/somethingawful/etc., can oftentimes be a mechanism of critique for ideas and rhetorical styles. One of the best things about the 'net is that, frankly, none of this really matters. None of it. It's a big joke. My twitters and my wikis and my…

My bank account is just an int in a server somewhere, but that doesn't make it unimportant. Obviously my karma isn't important, but that's because it has little effect on my outside of HN. Being bits on a server somewhere doesn't make it unimportant.

Similarly, when someone posted a fake obit of Steve Jobs (well before he died), it caused quite an impact despite none of it mattering.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#23

Post by omarchowdhury »

sambeau wrote: post #4

I wonder how much worse road etiquette would be if we had no license plates? I suspect there is a reasonable argument against net anonymity hidden in the history of the motor car. Does anyone know what the tipping point for license plates was?

Road etiquette would be worse if it weren't for the chance of death for messing up.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#24

Post by scott_s »

angersock wrote: post #6

Good post, but as someone who dabbles in trolling as a hobby, I'd like to suggest the following: Trolls are important. Trolling, especially as seen on places like slashdot/4chan/somethingawful/etc., can oftentimes be a mechanism of critique for ideas and rhetorical styles. One of the best things about the 'net is that, frankly, none of this really matters. None of it. It's a big joke. My twitters and my wikis and my…

I think your view of trolling is colored by your participation in it.

I would like to participate in and read honest discussion. Trolls poison honest discussion. The "none of this matters" line of thought is a red-herring. Trolls get in the way of what I, personally, get out of forums.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#25

Post by sambeau »

cobrausn wrote: post #16
sambeau wrote: post #4

I wonder how much worse road etiquette would be if we had no license plates? I suspect there is a reasonable argument against net anonymity hidden in the history of the motor car. Does anyone know what the tipping point for license plates was?

License plates came into existence in the early 1900s in Massachusetts when they needed a way to tax people to repair and maintain their roadways, and vehicle registration was the way they decided to accomplish it. It was also proposed as a way of linking drivers with actions, as there was a rapid increase in the number of roadway accidents about that time. http://www.mass.gov/rmv/history/

The French had them long before that (in fact they had them before the automobile). But I suspect you are right: it was tax to maintain the roads that required each automobile to be numbered and registered.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#26

Post by re_todd »

sukuriant wrote: post #10

Personally, I "troll" in real life. It's usually among friends and just taunting them, lying to them, etc, for the purpose of teasing them. They're trolls too, and it's a bit of a game between us. Really, in communities I frequent, there are so many trolls, we troll them back. Perhaps we're using the term differently from how pg is?

I went camping with a group of lawyers once, and they were a lot like this too. They wanted to constantly argue and debate. They would even assert things that I knew they personally disagreed with, just to start an argument. If nobody was arguing, they'd get kind of tense and nervous as if some calamity was about to happen, and then starting a debate seemed to relieve everyone's tension. Seemed strange to me.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#27

Post by fupeegee »

hey go fuck yourself pg. trolls will infest this site just as they will infest all sites. also, you are worthless. in 25 years after your death, almost nobody will remember you, or care if someone who does brings it to their attention, and in 50 absolutely no one will. you'll be remembered the same as the founder of ibm is today, which is, you won't be.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#28

Post by scrrr »

Interesting post.

I find unsubstantial / uninteresting / obvious / superfluous comments (like "I love it!" ) worse than very controversial or insulting comments. As long as the general information in the forum stay interesting and enjoyable.

Also isn't the "naughtiness" (some pg essay used that word I think) part of what some of the best contributors here have in common? And aren't entrepreneurs trolls, too, according to the OP's definition?

They disagree with something, they choose a path that is more fun than an ordinary life, they want to leave a mark.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#29

Post by tikhonj »

sambeau wrote: post #4

I wonder how much worse road etiquette would be if we had no license plates? I suspect there is a reasonable argument against net anonymity hidden in the history of the motor car. Does anyone know what the tipping point for license plates was?

I doubt it would be any different. Do you remember the license (gah, for some reason I hate spelling that word) plate of the last car that cut you off? If so, you are in the minority. Even if you knew the number, how would you correlate it with a face?

I don't think the license plate number gives much in the way of identity. In fact, it gives less identity than your average username--it is usually completely random, created with no input on the part of the driver.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#30

Post by _delirium »

scott_s wrote: post #24
angersock wrote: post #6

Good post, but as someone who dabbles in trolling as a hobby, I'd like to suggest the following: Trolls are important. Trolling, especially as seen on places like slashdot/4chan/somethingawful/etc., can oftentimes be a mechanism of critique for ideas and rhetorical styles. One of the best things about the 'net is that, frankly, none of this really matters. None of it. It's a big joke. My twitters and my wikis and my…

I think your view of trolling is colored by your participation in it. I would like to participate in and read honest discussion. Trolls poison honest discussion. The "none of this matters" line of thought is a red-herring. Trolls get in the way of what I, personally, get out of forums.

I like honest discussion also, but also enjoy discussion that's "playful" in various ways, especially when it's on the gray-area border between serious and trollish. You can get interesting sides of people when they have something of an alibi because they aren't "really" saying something (but aren't "really" not doing so, either).

I do think it's probably better if it's in areas where there's at least tacit agreement that those are the local discussion norms, though. If you post somewhere like SomethingAwful's FYAD (though I haven't taken a look in a few years), or 4chan, you can hardly claim to be surprised or misled by the conversational norms. On HN, the local culture prefers a different style of discussion, and I like that in its own way as well. Though I also liked some subset of Slashdot trolls in their heyday, even though they weren't officially welcome at Slashdot: OGG THE CAVEMAN, the BSD Troll, and a few others were some of the more interesting posters, some mixture of net-art and actual discussion.

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