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Just don’t

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Re: Just don’t

#431

Post by coldpie »

imknewhere wrote: post #322
coldpie wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those personality differences that I find utterly fascinating. I think you're right that most people feel the way you say, but I feel the exact opposite! If I'm talking about a problem, it's because I haven't figured out how to solve it and would be happy for ideas. Otherwise why talk about it? You're certainly not interested in my problems, and it's by definition a problem for me, so it's not like I e…

For real? Like if in the course of a conversation, somebody brings up that they've been struggling with depression and have a hard time getting up in the morning, you actually interpret that as a request for instructions they can follow, in order to become happy again? I just find that a little hard to believe. If it's actually true, well, I dunno, I'm sorry for you?

I mean, that's a rather extreme example. It's hard to say how I'd react in that situation, I'd probably feel uncomfortable and mumble and try to get out of the conversation, lol.

Re: Just don’t

#432

Post by sagaro »

j6zauas4gz wrote: post #285
sagaro wrote: post #281

Seems like a recipe for creating snowflakes. People should just grow a thicker skin and move on with their lives instead of taking offense and getting depressed that someone told them "just"

I dont think you are right about that, but for the sake of this comment lets assume that you are right and that this will create snowflakes. Even if that's true on the macro scale its still incredibly useful to keep in mind the impact your language has on the mind of the person you are communicating with. If my goal is to get the person I am communicating with to do a thing, most of the time idgaf about whether or no…

The issue with that line of thought, where people are justified to take offense to anything and then you ought to watch your language to not offend them to make things productive, is there is no limit to what people can take offense to.

A few days back I saw how using the thumbs up emoji offends people. Eventually, we will all be discussing at the least common denominator, the lowest quality of talk, because everything will offend everyone.

Point is to educate people that it is stupid to take offense to such things, because there are better things to do in life than be offended because someone said some word.

Re: Just don’t

#433

Post by caseysoftware »

I start really simply:

"What have you tried so far?"

And at least half the time, someone just going through their list out loud makes them think of something viable or that they missed. The other half of the time, I can often throw out an additional idea or two and we talk about how to (in)validate solutions.

I once got a rep for "debugging .Net code" despite writing 0 lines of it in the decade before. It's all about asking good questions.

Re: Just don’t

#435

Post by mgkimsal »

caseysoftware wrote: post #433

I start really simply: "What have you tried so far?" And at least half the time, someone just going through their list out loud makes them think of something viable or that they missed. The other half of the time, I can often throw out an additional idea or two and we talk about how to (in)validate solutions. I once got a rep for "debugging .Net code" despite writing 0 lines of it in the decade before. It's all about…

Good simple ideas. I too have been able to help debug rails code, despite not having touched rails in years. "Debugging .net code" is often just like "debugging python code" or "debugging java code"... it's generally the thought process vs any specific syntax. :)

Re: Just don’t

#436

Post by siculars »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #7

I get a lot more mileage out of "have you tried..." than "why don't you just...". As a recent example, I wrote a system that auto-generates PDF packing slips from an order form, to send to a warehouse for picking and packing. Yesterday a client told me to "just make it landscape" while I was explaining why "just making it landscape" won't solve the problem of giving the warehouse whitespace to pencil stuff in, becaus…

If the client is worth enough to you, get on a plane and physically shadow the workers who use your system for a few days. Absolutely nothing can replace direct face to face engagement with real life users.

In this case the person you are speaking with is a boss who either will not or can not articulate his needs. You need to go the the source - the front line users.

Re: Just don’t

#437

Post by jerf »

jasonlotito wrote: post #324
jerf wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmmm, well, I'm all about being accommodating and gracious to people under stress, but as this is all generally in the context of a professional interaction, there are some expectations of those who are being asked questions. If you don't want to be pestered with my every guess about what you may have already done, likely hitting several things you have, you really ought to be able to answer the question "what have y…

> but as this is all generally in the context of a professional interaction, there are some expectations of those who are being asked questions. The expectation is that they speak the same language. Whether they understand what I'm asking is on me, and helping them understand what I'm asking is also on me. "What have you tried?" is such challenging question, because you don't know the technical skill of the person in…

In the context of a professional interaction, which I remind you is the context and which I explicitly refreshed, I think everything you said is fully covered. We wouldn't be talking in the first place if there wasn't a problem.

If not... frankly, in the context of a professional interaction, if someone starts making the bizarre excuse that it's just too hard to tell me what they've already tried, or that it's somehow offensive that I'm asking them this question, I may very well be having a professional interaction with that person's professional manager about their suitability for the professional job. It's not something I've done often, but it has come up, and I've never been the only one raising such questions about an employee when I've had to do that. It's far from the first thing I reach for, but it has come up.

I honestly have no idea what you or the other replier are banging on about with regard to how hard a question this is to answer. Unless you're just being contrary for contrariness' sake. It's a basic question, and as I said up front, I don't expect a 100% accurate recitation of everything up front, I mean, I never expect any statement to necessarily be 100% accurate up front, I expect a process of getting closer to the truth over time, but the idea that someone would just be unable to answer any questions about what they've already done boggles my mind, and the idea that I should maybe feel bad about asking it is just insane.

If you, personally, are having trouble answering that question, you should get better. Take better notes if you can't rely on your memory. But the problem lies with you, not anyone asking the question. There is no way that anyone being paid to solve problems should respond to such a basic question with "I don't really know", let alone offense.

Re: Just don’t

#438

Post by yoyohello13 »

AYBABTME wrote: post #400
yoyohello13 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've learned that 9 times out of 10, if someone is telling you about their problems, they really just want some understanding or compassion. I've found that instead of trying to 'fix' their problem with unsolicited advice, saying something like "Wow, that sucks, I'm sorry you're going through that" leads to a much more positive response.

To me, someone saying "wow that sucks" tells me this person doesn't bother to think about what I said and is barely spending brain space on listening to me, instead choosing to blurt out a generic platitude. Their response lack a proof of work. Whereas if someone answers with something that clearly demonstrates that they feel engaged in my struggle, enough to spend some brain power on it to form a useful opinion or c…

It’s all in the delivery. You can say it in a way the sounds dismissive or compassionate, that’s on you.

Re: Just don’t

#439

Post by corobo »

actionablefiber wrote: post #428
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone here is looking for ways to make unsolicited suggestions in a diplomatic way. Even with extra language this can be irritating to reply to. I’ve learned to first ask if there is anything I can do to help, rather than immediately making suggestions. Often times people are doing just fine working through a problem, and may want to communicate the status without receiving advice on how to solve it. For interpers…

This is certainly sometimes true, but when someone is explicitly asking for help, making suggestions that are too "obvious" may come off as condescending or, if the other person hadn't tried it, put them on the defensive. For instance you might suggest something like "turn it off and on again" and the other person might say "duh, I already tried that and it didn't work, I wouldn't have come to you otherwise" or worse…

Can't you ask "What have you tried so far?". I can't imagine that being taken weirdly.

Re: Just don’t

#440

Post by hnfong »

corobo wrote: post #439
actionablefiber wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is certainly sometimes true, but when someone is explicitly asking for help, making suggestions that are too "obvious" may come off as condescending or, if the other person hadn't tried it, put them on the defensive. For instance you might suggest something like "turn it off and on again" and the other person might say "duh, I already tried that and it didn't work, I wouldn't have come to you otherwise" or worse…

Can't you ask "What have you tried so far?". I can't imagine that being taken weirdly.

In some situations could result in a 30 minute speech though.
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