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‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

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Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#211
post #146
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was some odd stuff going on in that election without much need for spinning it.

Can you expand on your comment? Are you suggesting that US elections can be rigged?

Probably the most memorable was the Russians hacking the Democrats emails. Also Trump's lot meeting with the Russians before hand and the 100s of Russian troll accounts with names like American Patriot. I mean I know a lot of countries try to influence elections but is was all getting like something from a spy novel.

I'm not American and not hugely partisan on the right/left thing but I think the whole world was watching that one and thinking it a bit odd. Obviously the Russians were trying to help Trump and may have swung things a little given that the vote was so close.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but did they groom a successor? Yeltsin did (Putin). Krushchev - not sure, I think there was a bit of a tussle. Gorbachev was probably too young to be thinking about a successsor - and he was essentially shutting down the Soviet Union.

Khrushchev was overthrown. Gorbachev was basically too. After the hardliners’ coup attempt he was basically a lame duck.

Yeah I think casual observers miss the fundamental political apathy of most Russians.

Overthrown leaders don't have a power base; mobs aren't going to turn out to return a deposed leader to power. Once they are irrelevant, they're going to stay that way, and everyone knows it.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some GOPs do not support funding Ukraine, most do. Also, most want accountability and audit

I think given the gravity of the atrocities being committed, and the imminent threat to democracy, things like audits should be a distant secondary concern. I'm certainly not concerned about the dollars being used to fight Putin because I think the costs of not doing otherwise would far outweigh them.

What if the prices are inflated and we are not sending as much as we could?

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#214
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much of this. A lot of us underestimate how powerful modern propoganda is and how easy it is to manipulate people. A lot of research been done on human behavior and phychology in recent decades and opressive regimes makes good use of it. It takes time, but unfortunately it's still possible to turn a lot of normal people into zombies on Nazi Germany level. With internet and social networks spreading all kind of man…

> If someone thinks that living in democracy alone makes you immune to propoganda that just not the case. I think more commonly what people do is see propaganda that is ineffective on them and inaccurately conclude that propaganda overall is ineffective on them. Often citing their intelligence. In reality you just weren't the target of said propaganda. We're all vulnerable to it, no matter your IQ. If one wants to de…

I honestly dont know real solution to this problem. It is easy to blame a nation, but even talking of people in opposition to regime things become weird when terrible happen. A lot of smart people stay passive and unable to protect themselves let alone resist. Propoganda did not make them support war and regime, but it was perfectly capable of breaking their will.

Honestly speaking I not even sure if political discussion alone is enough. I just wish more people understood this is the big problem for modern civilization. We need better education on these topics so average Joe is better suited to resist manipulation.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#215
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing we could do would be to implement some common-sense election integrity improvements such as those recommended in https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/25120/securing-the... , or similarly by the advocacy group: https://verifiedvoting.org/annual-report-2021/advocating-for... . These should have bipartisan support. Things like paper votes for every election, random manual recounts to sample error rates an…

I believe you are focusing on a moving target. Electoral fraud is just the current wedge issue, it will become something else next when a lot of effort and thought is wasted trying to fix a system that is not that broken to be causing such uproar. You waste resources playing a whack-a-mole game against the firehose of bullshit. It's electoral fraud now, something to do with green energy plans next, then whatever welf…

> you are focusing on a moving target.

Election security might be a moving target for you, but this is something I have been paying attention to for at least a decade. I think it's important to note that there is an underlying bipartisan issue here that has been known for a long time.

> a lot of effort and thought is wasted trying to fix a system that is not that broken

This is certainly the blue-tribe talking point right now, but it's an oversimplification, and I encourage you to actually read and engage with the materials I linked. There are security vulnerabilities and auditability failures in the system which should be fixed, and this was a common blue-tribe issue prior to 2020, when it switched to being a red-tribe issue. I don't think these issues are catastrophic failures that invalidate the election results, but they are serious and worth attention.

I think one should separate out concrete claims of fraud in 2020 that have since been refuted by recounts (e.g. Antrim County) as examples of the motivated reasoning I referred to, vs. issues like un-auditable DRE machines which are actual problems that need to be fixed.

I do understand where you're coming from; the instinctive reaction in a low-trust partisan environment is that giving oxygen to the bad-faith/motivated-reasoning claims of election fraud does more harm than good. However for one example, I think if the red tribe has a good showing tomorrow (i.e. lose some of their incentive to cry fraud), then that would be an ideal time to get some bipartisan legislation in place to try to bleed the issue of salience ahead of the 2024 elections where it could be extremely dangerous.

> You waste resources playing a whack-a-mole

The point I was making is that there is some set of policy changes that the blue team thought were beneficial in 2016, and perhaps we could all agree to do them. It's not merely whack-a-mole if you leave the world a better place after whacking the first mole. The goal I'm advocating here is not to play zero-sum games to "whack the opponent", it's to actually make objective improvements to the system that in normal times would be uncontroversial bipartisan proposals. If we can execute the political Ju-Jitsu to redirect the current toxic discourse into actual improvements that would be a major win.

Sure, following that there will be another wedge issue; that's politics. But I think the important question is whether we make non-zero-sum gains during each issue cycle, and sometimes it is possible to do so.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#216
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment comes off as malinformation. Malinformation isn't information that is incorrect, but correct information used in a way to create a misleading context. There's 2 problems here. 1) You're implicitly dismissive of a foreign government interfering in our elections. I think most of us here will agree that any interference from any entity is not okay. 2) It muddles the conversation with more noise. A more in d…

> malinformation Please do not normalize the use of a term that is being pushed by the government to justify censoring information they don’t like [1]. I understand that there is such a thing as “true information presented out of context in a manner meant to mislead”, and I even grant that the comment might be guilty of it. But “malinformation” and “misinformation” are just becoming labels for “information that is in…

I do want to point out that the word was more frequently used in 2004[0], the furthest back Google Trends will let me go. Our usage today is even substantially lower than that in 2009.

I'm not saying that the government isn't trying to manipulate the topics and use the same words too. After all, that's the entire thing we're discussing. But that doesn't mean that they get to control words either. That's an unwinnable battle because the adversary has such an easy path to victory. All you need to do is take language people are using and incorporate it into your own, but with slightly different (but reasonable) meaning. You're actively engaging in their strategy. Words are defined by how they are used and understood by the public. So if you understand my intention and that I am not using it in this same manipulative manner, then we're pushing back and ensuring they do not take control of our language.

[0] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=m...

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did Lula also have more support in the polling in those places that used those older models? If I understood correctly, they were compared to other machines in the same electoral zone. Each zone can have 2020 models and pre-2020 models. The older models had more votes compared to 2020 models even in the same geographical locations. > I think you’re looking at correlations in data and fantasizing a causation that is…

Depends on what you mean by same geographical locations, but that can vary a lot. If you’re looking over 100’s of kilometers, there will be both poor and wealthy districts. If you’re looking within a single city, there will be poor and wealthy districts. This really only gets informative if you’re looking at different models used in the exact same polling place and even then it could be no more than correlation for o…

> maybe for example poorer people prefer the older machines because they’re more familiar while wealthier people prefer newer machines because it matches their iPhone

The machines look the same to the voter and we can't choose which machine to vote on. Each citizen is assigned an electoral zone and a section within that zone. One voting machine captures the votes of every section. In my neighborhood, for example, the voting took place at a school and every classroom had a different voting machine, one for each section.

It'd be extremely suspicious if it turned out that the people voting one room away from me showed statistically significant differences from the other sections.

> Did you look at whether voting on newer models showed a higher preference for Bolsonaro than the national average?

Looks like Bolsonaro wins if only 2020 models are evaluated.

> What if Bolsonaro had won and someone claimed that the newer machines were built while he was in office so they were clearly programmed to favor him? Would you accept that narrative based purely on a correlation in data?

Clearly we'd be having the same election denialism problems we're having now...

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a latin expert, but "malinformation" seems like an etomogically perfect word to describe a "whataboutism"

Or an accusation of one.

This is why it is important to understand the distinction between misinformation and disinformation. The former being an idiot, the latter being a manipulator. But those that want to sow discord want us to conflate the two, which is rather easy. I'd say it is pretty common with any word that becomes a hot button itself.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or an accusation of one.

This is why it is important to understand the distinction between misinformation and disinformation. The former being an idiot, the latter being a manipulator. But those that want to sow discord want us to conflate the two, which is rather easy. I'd say it is pretty common with any word that becomes a hot button itself.

I agree. But, to be clear, I consider any accusation of "whataboutism" I see to be disinformation by default, until proven otherwise from context, because by far most use of it I saw was as a way to shut down good discussion points. I have a short list of such words/phrases; another notable one is "dog whistle", which I have never seen used in good faith on-line.
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