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Suicide

raganwald.posterous.com

181–190 of 291 posts

Re: Suicide

#181

So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so we…

"You only get to do this once. Is this the time?" Have you ever done heroin? Get drunk with a bunch of kids you don't know? Skydive? Steal a car? Wake up in a hotel in Mexico? Sorry to be flip, but there are probably a lot of things you've never done that you'd feel rotten about the next day, but at least there'd be a next day, and you could do it again. "Not being" is an option, but it's a stupid one. I didn't like…

This is an incredibly insensitive comment, I'm shocked, almost disgusted. One of the most admirable qualities that humans possess is empathy - the ability to understand and identify with someone else's emotional experiences. We reach out to people in such extreme emotional pain because in some way, we experience some of that pain. I'm using the royal 'we', but it seems you lack that ability to show any empathy whatsoever...

Re: Suicide

#182

So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so we…

I don't usually talk about this, but your post speaks to something that most opinions on the subject never do. 22 years ago I went through a fairly strange time: I was depressed, disconnected, and feeling deeply alone. It culminated in a very violent suicide attempt. Despite all my plans and precautions I was found still alive and hospitalised. Being young and antisocial I never went back to therapy and for a few mon…

Despite all my plans and precautions I was found still alive and hospitalised.

At a time (a few years ago) when I really didn't want to go on, this was one of the things that prevented me from attempting suicide again: The possibility of surviving it again, knowing how negatively that would impact my life. My life was hard enough at the time without inflicting additional suffering on myself and also getting labeled "crazy" or something (plus potentially being saddled with additional medical bills, etc). A lot of people living with the kind of chronic pain and suffering (due to a health issue) that I was living with do think about killing themselves. "Bars do not a prison make". A body that tortures you ever single minute of every day is a pretty bleak prison to live with.

But I also was actively working on resolving the underlying problem that made me wish I were dead. I think that is a critical detail missing from a lot of the encouragement offered when this topic comes up. In fact, spending a year at death's door was very empowering for me in that regard because it freed me up from fear of doing something socially unacceptable. I never know how to properly express this, but I lived and began getting well because I stopped trying to dutifully keep myself alive and, instead, my one and only goal became to hurt less. I was rather annoyed when I realized that my efforts to hurt less were actually killing the infections the doctors didn't know how to kill because I realized it meant I faced a long, very hard recovery. I would have welcomed death 10 or 11 years ago because I was in constant excruciating pain and couldn't sleep and every minute of the day was torment. So in some sense I came to a point where my attitude was "fuck societal expectation -- what do I want?" Given what a people-pleasing doormat I tend towards, this had a very positive impact on my life.

What I am trying to convey is: If you are suicidal, if your problems are so bad that death is something you would consider, that fact can be used to say "well, why not also consider this long list of other stuff (ie possible solutions/options) I wouldn't normally consider because it's socially unacceptable/my mom wouldn't approve/whatever?" When I stopped being at death's door, I had to work at keeping alive that mental space for saying "fuck societal opinion -- what do I want?" because my innate wiring makes societal opinion way the hell too important to me. I made a conscious choice to find some way to keep that standard alive for myself, to say "hell, what's the worst that could happen? Oh, someone might disapprove? And that fucking matters why?"

Anyway, I hope that makes some small smidgeon of sense to someone. I find it a very difficult concept to express.

Re: Suicide

#183

So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so we…

Please don't delete it. I also felt Reg was off the mark (although perhaps not to the extent that you do), but that's why i messaged him what i thought was the real issue. I think it's important to communicate what that feeling is. So many people misunderstand the actual nature of suicidal tendencies. They think that it's just about someone feeling alone, or unhappy or whatever. But those feelings all have "normal" a…

> True depression is knowing that not being is an option equally viable to being.

There's a quote by David Foster Wallace that states it better:

"The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn't do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's terror of the flame yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don‘t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."

Re: Suicide

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel terribly sorry that you feel this way. I don't want to mess with this kind of stuff on something this important but, speaking from my own experience, and I do understand this feeling very well, I'd say that this is evidence that the sadness and ideation comes from inside and that the road to resolving it comes from working on that rather than outside things. I've come to realise this quite strongly myself over…

For many people, what you say rings true, but it's dangerous to imply that that these feelings are purely a product of someone's thinking and that they can fix them on their own. There are people who, no matter how much they sit down and think things through, try and sort out their problems, etc, are going to feeling depressed -- likely due to chemical imbalances and structural differences in the brain. Thinking abou…

I didn't mean to imply that it can just be fixed by the person working on their own, rather that you need to face the depression itself rather than go down the road of trying other, outside, things in an attempt to indirectly fix the feelings themselves.

Of course medication/therapy/even acceptance of a chemical imbalance are not off the table at all.

A big problem with depression is that it makes you feel very guilty, unnecessarily, so I really want to make clear that I didn't want to imply somebody should feel that it's somehow their fault at all.

In many ways a large part of it is getting outside help. I really do recommend that, and have found that extremely helpful myself.

Re: Suicide

#185

So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so we…

I'm just sick of reading articles like this because I've been there, and I've seen what "help" looks like, and I was worse off for most of it. "Help" is what happens when people hear you say that suicide is a choice, because they assume it's their duty to take that choice from you.

Hey Steve, If you ever want someone to talk to, you can email me at aanty@gmail.com. I can't promise "help" of the sort you mention, but I don't mind discussing philosophy, meaning, etc. You aren't alone in the world. I would be happy to meet talk with you anonymously.

Re: Suicide

#186
Suicide is an interesting phenomenon with multiple causes, some short-sighted (rejection from lover), some circumstantial (not being able to pay debt) and some misguided (not getting admission in a good college). But what sounds to me the most _genuine_ reason for suicide is someone who has contemplated meaning of life for long and hasn't been able to find any inherent reason why he should exist. That person may have friends, financially secure and may love having fun. But internally he may slowly realize the fact that his existence in this world is pointless. How do you call such suicide attempt as stupid? The person has clearly thought through it and decided not to exist.

This doesn't mean I personally endorse suicide. I am a big believer in Absurdism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism and think the whole point of life is to live in face of absurdity. The realization that you have to live (and it's OK even if you die because existence is pointless after all) gives you incredible power. You are no longer afraid of doing things like quitting your job, talking to girls in a bar, going sky diving and trying drugs. After all, no matter what happens, you have nothing to loose. We all are going to die one day, so why not die _after_ doing whatever your heart desires.

Re: Suicide

#187
Having spent quality time in the hospital for a suicide attempt, I really do embrace the idea that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" except when it is not. Prolonged and painful cancer, Alzheimers, etc all make perfect sense to me as a suicide solution because there is no "future" that improves the situation.

Depression is defeatable on the other hand and sometimes you just have to grind through and get to the other side. I tried the suicide route due to it and I won't ever opt for it on a temporary situation again.

Re: Suicide

#188
For another perspective that I thought was pretty insightful:

http://viewonbuddhism.org/depression.html

Particularly insightful, I thought, was this pasted forum post: "Having myself experienced extreme, regularly to the point of suicidal, depression, I think I can understand your point of view at least to a certain extent. But on the notion of self-centredness, I'm afraid I have to agree. From my own experience, coming through a massive clinical depression and coming through to the other end, cured, I believe self-centredness to be the very cause of depression. And not just depression, but every ailment in the world as we know it. The irony is, I can only see this NOW, with hindsight, looking back at my mindstate when I was depressed: "ego all the way, me me me, MY problems, MY depression, MY past, MY MY MY MY..." That very self-absorbed, self-centred fascination with my own ego and its agenda mindstate is exactly what kept me trapped in that depression for so long. It's only when I started to consider that maybe -- just maybe -- as one of the 6 BILLION people on this planet, other people had problems FAR WORSE than mine, that the clouds began to part. And when I realised that I was being very selfish and WASTING my life in a state of -- excuse me, but there are few better terms -- mental masturbation. All I was doing was feeding my ego, indulging its little whims and woes, and feeling sorry for myself. What was I doing for humanity? Nothing. And yes, that is self-centredness in its highest -- or should I say lowest -- form. Of course, the great curse of the ever-nourished ego -- the root of all depression -- is that when you're IN that state, you CAN'T SEE it for what it is. It's like the people stuck in the Matrix (the film). They wouldn't believe it if you told them they were living in a dream. You have to wake up for yourself, then you see it." Joshua Bryer

Re: Suicide

#189

So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so we…

"You only get to do this once. Is this the time?" Have you ever done heroin? Get drunk with a bunch of kids you don't know? Skydive? Steal a car? Wake up in a hotel in Mexico? Sorry to be flip, but there are probably a lot of things you've never done that you'd feel rotten about the next day, but at least there'd be a next day, and you could do it again. "Not being" is an option, but it's a stupid one. I didn't like…

I am also shocked by the complete lack of empathy. And you QEDed nothing in no way.

Re: Suicide

#190

So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so we…

"You only get to do this once. Is this the time?" Have you ever done heroin? Get drunk with a bunch of kids you don't know? Skydive? Steal a car? Wake up in a hotel in Mexico? Sorry to be flip, but there are probably a lot of things you've never done that you'd feel rotten about the next day, but at least there'd be a next day, and you could do it again. "Not being" is an option, but it's a stupid one. I didn't like…

Nice. Your comment makes it clear you don't understand any evolutionary theory, but you still feel ok judging people based on your ignorance.
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