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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#831
post #742
post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I would only look at test scroes like SAT. Nothing else. Maybe few exceptions on relevant competitions like math olympics medalists.

Yeah that’s a terrible approach. All you’d get are kids who are good at testing and nothing else.

This is false. You should read MIT's very helpful blog on why they decided to bring back the SAT. Tl;Dr - the SAT is not a perfect indicator, but in combination with GPA, it is the best predictor of success in advanced education, especially in STEM disciplines. There is very high correlation between grades and SAT scores. Anecdotally, this aligns with my observations too.

I am quite familiar now with the SAT, and have taken the GRE and GMAT myself, and don't understand why any of these standardized tests are considered unfair to certain groups. I think they are a good measure of cognitive ability for advanced studies. People are shooting the messenger.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#832

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LBJ notably makes no distinction between looking down with sympathy or looking down with disdain. And as much as I hate him (actually, I really hate Kennedy more, LBJ got dealt a shit hand) I think that so long as the discussion is constrained to the purposes of getting people to empty their wallets that detail can safely be omitted.

No one thinks that the segregationists of LBJs era were looking down in sympathy.

My point is that it wasn't just the segregationists who were looking down.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#833
post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses. Let me help put your concerns to rest. If Harvard et al changed their admissions policies to race blind tomorrow, your son still would not get in. How do I know this? You are talking about his prospects as an applica…

Many of your points are valid and I don't disagree with them. But you're assuming too much by saying that he has too narrow of a focus. You don't know him. My kid is strong in some areas, not as strong in others. He's realistic and knows that Harvard, Stanford are lottery schools for almost everyone. He has no feeling of entitlement, and neither do I, but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than…

> ...but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than almost anyone else because of his race.

Your measuring stick is 90% blank. How you measure "higher standard" are table stakes in the Ivies.

csa already did a good job explaining this which apparently didn't sway you, so I'm going to try a different tack.

If you ever get the opportunity to meet in person face to face in an intimate setting with Bill Clinton, Barack Obama or Arnold Schwarzenegger, I encourage you to avail yourself, and observe as detached as you can. The change in the room is palpable and electric. Their charisma is off the charts powerful.

I'm familiar with Clinton's charisma, and it is stunning to watch at work. It isn't just his extraordinarily comprehensive recall, but also how he deploys it. You can observe the mechanics, like warmly restarting a thread of conversation with someone he last met a few years ago as if he simply turned around from another party guest a few seconds ago. But even among top politicians who employ the same technique, he stands out in the refined fashion with which he delivers it.

Think how many people regularly in your life have that kind of charisma. The Ivies still reject candidates with that level of magnetic personality because they lack in other dimensions.

By using the metrics you use, you are limiting your son and yourself. Those metrics come with a hard ceiling. Where the Ivies are going, there are no ceilings, there are no metrics in the first place. World class admissions means being open to von Neumann-scale, I-didn't-believe-that-possible possibilities to surprise the admissions committee and delight in that.

You don't achieve that surprise and delight with what you have mentioned so far.

Your son sounds like a terrific human being and you are rightfully fiercely proud of him and what you have accomplished as a parent and successful immigrant. Keep pushing forward on that trajectory, for college is not the pinnacle, just another foothill towards that summit reached at the end of our life. He can (and I'm sure will) still achieve incredible heights in his life, Ivy or not, as long as he continues to improve himself and the little part of the universe around him that he can personally make better. Successful dents in the universe have rarely historically come stamped with Ivy diplomas, and I wish someday to read about a dent your son makes and delight in my surprise at where that dent shows up.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're far from privileged. Indian-American father here as well. You came to the US from India. You are probably upper caste. You almost certainly got a good quality education in India for cheap. Your parents probably had servants. You are privileged. End of story.

Bangladeshi-American father here. “Privileged” compared to who? It would be one thing if Ivy League universities accepted Appalachians and rural Georgians stuck in generational poverty. Ironically, people like Clarence Thomas—minorities who grew up in real poverty—are not the main target of AA. The whole reason this is a problem here is that these policies aren’t actually based on privilege. It’s racial gerrymanderin…

Privileged compared to most around him? I'm not comparing OP to the Kennedys but just because he came to the US with a few hundred bucks and worked hard does not mean he is not privileged.

The generational poverty thing is a disingenous distraction. Hypercompetitive environments like the bay area is rife with OP-like cases, the parents go after the boxes to check to get into the top schools, the kids check them. OP's son worked hard and will almost certainly go to a good school, but... Sharma's son went to MIT! All that has happened is that the gaming Indian parents do doesnt work as well as it once did because others wised up to it. I see nothing wrong with promoting someone who has "unforced" talent, and in some cases race may be a poor way in some cases to base that upon, but in general it is not so bad.

The real tragedy is that the most unfair thing these colleges do, which the article mentions, legacy admissions, gets a pass in all the AA talk.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious non-Indian here, how did you know that there were exactly two Dalits in your class? Is this a thing people talk about? Were they open about it? Or do you just recognize them on sight?

I am not a Hindu, so my caste radar is fairly weak. I cant tell caste by last name or by religious practices. Having said that, People ask folks how much they scored in their entrance exam. Then it becomes obvious who were Dalits are - they had the lowest scores. The 2 of them were also fairly underprivileged, so you could guess from their less trendy and not as new clothes too. 50% were payment seats with about the…

Okay, but to follow up, how do you know that some are engineering managers at Microsoft, now? Is this just something that gets around via gossip?

Also, is "caste radar" a word you made up, or is that a generally-used concept?

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given our history, I would say race is far more interesting. And we need those clicks. The media is simply responding to the incentives. It’s all of our fault. If we didn’t click on it, they would stop publishing it.

I don't think that's true at all. Class and economics in America are fascinating.

I agree that it's fascinating, but the race issue is more like a pornography for America. And Americans would prefer to consume the porn than the substance.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bangladeshi-American father here. “Privileged” compared to who? It would be one thing if Ivy League universities accepted Appalachians and rural Georgians stuck in generational poverty. Ironically, people like Clarence Thomas—minorities who grew up in real poverty—are not the main target of AA. The whole reason this is a problem here is that these policies aren’t actually based on privilege. It’s racial gerrymanderin…

Privileged compared to most around him? I'm not comparing OP to the Kennedys but just because he came to the US with a few hundred bucks and worked hard does not mean he is not privileged. The generational poverty thing is a disingenous distraction. Hypercompetitive environments like the bay area is rife with OP-like cases, the parents go after the boxes to check to get into the top schools, the kids check them. OP's…

> All that has happened is that the gaming Indian parents do doesnt work as well as it once did because others wised up to it. I see nothing wrong with promoting someone who has "unforced" talent, and in some cases race may be a poor way in some cases to base that upon, but in general it is not so bad.

So what you’re saying is that it’s “not so bad” for colleges to pick the upper middle class Hispanic kid over the upper middle class Indian kid, because you think Indian parents are “gaming” the system.

I’m going to say no, that’s racism, and it should be illegal. If you want to give kids a leg up because they’re from a poor family, fine. But it shouldn’t matter what race they are.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#839

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

> We're far from privileged. Indian-American father here as well. You came to the US from India. You are probably upper caste. You almost certainly got a good quality education in India for cheap. Your parents probably had servants. You are privileged. End of story.

I have a huge problem with people looking at the world through the lens of "privilege". Seems like "privilege" is what they're looking for all the time.

Also, you watered down the term "privilege" to such an extent that it has lost any practical meaning. I came to the US as it is the land of opportunity, and still believe that is the case. In my view, anyone born here, including black and brown people, has sort of won the lottery already. But they're so concerned with "fairness" that they miss taking advantage of the opportunities right in front of them.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of your points are valid and I don't disagree with them. But you're assuming too much by saying that he has too narrow of a focus. You don't know him. My kid is strong in some areas, not as strong in others. He's realistic and knows that Harvard, Stanford are lottery schools for almost everyone. He has no feeling of entitlement, and neither do I, but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than…

> ...but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than almost anyone else because of his race. Your measuring stick is 90% blank. How you measure "higher standard" are table stakes in the Ivies. csa already did a good job explaining this which apparently didn't sway you, so I'm going to try a different tack. If you ever get the opportunity to meet in person face to face in an intimate setting with Bil…

I'm not naive. Places like Harvard select the best of the best, and that students like my son will be common in their applicant pool, etc. The original point I made and stand by was that, AA should be based on economic conditions, not race. Race should not be used as a short-hand for economic adversity. I think colleges just want to see more "black and brown" faces, and Asian Americans (including brown-skinned Indians, like my son) are not the right shade of brown.

Thanks for your sentiments in the last paragraph. He will make a dent!

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