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Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

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Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#151

Post by ziml77 »

skissane wrote: post #130
ziml77 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today they "emulate" Linux on Windows (WSL2), tomorrow they will "emulate" Windows on Linux (i.e. all the Win32, etc APIs on Linux - think WINE++). No. Microsoft tried to bridge the Linux APIs to NT APIs in WSL1 just like WINE does for Windows APIs to Linux APIs. But they ended up running into issues and limitations that made them change their approach. Now, with WSL2, they just have a virtualized instance of Linux…

> Microsoft tried to bridge the Linux APIs to NT APIs in WSL1 just like WINE does for Windows APIs to Linux APIs WSL1 doesn’t implement the Linux syscall interface on top of the user-mode Win32 or NT APIs. Rather, it runs in-kernel; it calls kernel-mode NT APIs (only some of which directly correspond to NT syscalls), and (I assume) also implements some aspects of the Linux APIs internally to itself. Its approach is r…

I specifically said NT APIs to differentiate from the Windows APIs. And my "just like WINE" comment was more to differentiate what they were doing with WSL1 from WSL2. My use of "just like" is too strong there.

And I also don't think any of the problems were insurmountable. I'm still disappointed that they gave up on WSL1. (At least partially because I thought the whole Windows Subsystem concept was neat design)

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#153

Post by walterbell »

ripvanwinkle wrote: post #148
walterbell wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies, I mixed up gregkh (Linux Foundation) with Sasha Levin (Microsoft), https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2019/06/26/2 DirectX on Linux, https://lkml.org/lkml/2020/5/19/742

Sasha Levin works at Google https://www.linkedin.com/in/sasha-levin-9861662

Since 2021. During the 2020 thread posted above, he worked at Microsoft.

Other MS contributors to LKML: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/?q=microsoft.com

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#154

Post by Kukumber »

walterbell wrote: post #106

Microsoft employs primary maintainers of the Linux kernel (gregkh) and systemd (Lennart Poettering), among other Linux contributors. (correction: gregkh works for Linux Foundation, Sasha Levin works for MS). Azure Sphere OS for embedded is based on the Linux kernel, https://static.sched.com/hosted_files/ossna19/91/Crossover_E... There's also their NOS for merchant silicon whitebox networking, https://www.linuxfoundat…

It's very sad how linux ended up being eaten alive, rotten deep inside

Devuan [1] or freebsd it is for me until an alternative emerges

[1] - https://www.devuan.org/

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#155

Post by josephg »

thrown_22 wrote: post #149
josephg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine being ok with trillion dollar companies using opensource code you wrote, for free. Imagine if the people who work at those companies aren't your enemy. But instead are potential customers and potential collaborators, who see value in your work and want it to succeed. Imagine if there was a good implementation of some idea, expressed as code. And we can all share and contribute to that single good implementati…

>Imagine if the people who work at those companies aren't your enemy. But instead are potential customers and potential collaborators, who see value in your work and want it to succeed. Yes, but we'd have to imagine it isn't microsoft doing it. You'd think people would learn the dozenth time it happens, but no, here we are again with copilot and VS Studio Code.

Can you be more specific? What, exactly, are you mad about microsoft doing with vscode?

Copilot is a whole other beast. I don't think there's any simple answers there.

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#156

Post by skissane »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #145
ziml77 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today they "emulate" Linux on Windows (WSL2), tomorrow they will "emulate" Windows on Linux (i.e. all the Win32, etc APIs on Linux - think WINE++). No. Microsoft tried to bridge the Linux APIs to NT APIs in WSL1 just like WINE does for Windows APIs to Linux APIs. But they ended up running into issues and limitations that made them change their approach. Now, with WSL2, they just have a virtualized instance of Linux…

> No. Microsoft tried to bridge the Linux APIs to NT APIs in WSL1 just like WINE does for Windows APIs to Linux APIs. Uhh, I think you miss read my post. I agree with you WSL1 was a dead end. It tried to put Linux on top of NT. I believe MS will try to put Win32, etc on top of Native Linux APIs (removing NT entirely). WINE and Proton have effectively done 90% and MSFT will have a way simpler time of getting it to 100…

I think it is unlikely even Microsoft would succeed in replacing the NT kernel with the Linux kernel.

NT has features which Linux kernel devs have actively opposed including – such as alternate data stream support in its VFS/IFS layer, and a stable device driver ABI. So even supposing – and I'd be rather surprised if it were to ever actually happen – Microsoft were to release the NT kernel under a GPL-compatible license (thereby eliminating many of the legal issues), they still might find it a great struggle to get the necessary features upstreamed.

Important parts of Windows – e.g. synchronisation primitives – cannot be emulated on top of the Linux syscall API as it currently exists (with accuracy and high performance), due to gaps in functionality. See https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/f4cc1a38-1441-62f8-47e4-0c67f5a... for some of the gory details. I note that LKML message appears to have received zero replies, which is not an encouraging sign for any progress on that issue.

> MSFT also has the financial motivation to stop developing the NT Kernel

It would be a huge investment to extend the Linux kernel to be able to support a 100% correct and equal performance emulation of the NT API, and to port that API to run on top of it. Even with such a huge investment, there would be no guarantee of success (what if Linus refuses to upstream the required features?). And, if it legally requires open-sourcing large parts of the existing Windows kernel (due to GPL compatibility), that would greatly improve the viability of Wine/ReactOS/etc, threatening Microsoft's existing Windows revenue stream. The financial case for what you are proposing is far less clear than you think it is.

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#157

Post by skissane »

ziml77 wrote: post #151
skissane wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft tried to bridge the Linux APIs to NT APIs in WSL1 just like WINE does for Windows APIs to Linux APIs WSL1 doesn’t implement the Linux syscall interface on top of the user-mode Win32 or NT APIs. Rather, it runs in-kernel; it calls kernel-mode NT APIs (only some of which directly correspond to NT syscalls), and (I assume) also implements some aspects of the Linux APIs internally to itself. Its approach is r…

I specifically said NT APIs to differentiate from the Windows APIs. And my "just like WINE" comment was more to differentiate what they were doing with WSL1 from WSL2. My use of "just like" is too strong there. And I also don't think any of the problems were insurmountable. I'm still disappointed that they gave up on WSL1. (At least partially because I thought the whole Windows Subsystem concept was neat design)

> I specifically said NT APIs to differentiate from the Windows APIs.

It depends on what you mean by "NT APIs". If you mean the NT API exposed to user-mode (NT syscalls), no, that is insufficient to implement WSL1 (or anything else like it). If you mean to include kernel-mode-only NT APIs (including undocumented/private APIs which MS doesn't expose to third parties, even new APIs added specifically for WSL1 to consume), then yes that is.

> the whole Windows Subsystem concept was neat design

Also worth keeping in mind, that WSL1 is not an "environment subsystem" in the sense that Win32 is – or OS/2 and POSIX/etc were. It has a radically different architecture from a classic Windows NT environment subsystem.

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#158

Post by beoberha »

skissane wrote: post #79
beoberha wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to this is “why not both”. I work on an Azure service and we use Server Core for our entire fleet. Most do.

How do Azure’s architects decide when to use Linux and when to use Server Core?

I’ll echo the sibling comment and say it’s up to whoever is building the new service. I haven’t been involved with that so I can’t really speak to it.

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#159

Post by BeefWellington »

aliqot wrote: post #58
noinsight wrote: post #18

No. Microsoft will buy Canonical for Ubuntu and that sweet, sweet developer mindshare. Ubuntu is the developer distro after all. Ubuntu will become Microsoft Linux.

> Ubuntu is the developer distro after all I'd have assumed Arch and friends.

My daily driver for dev work is Fedora. It gets a bad rap but I think it's superior to most other distros if you want a "work-focused" distribution with relatively little tinkering required.

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#160

Post by LeFantome »

josephg wrote: post #73
mastax wrote: post #17

Imagine writing Linux From Scratch and someone from Microsoft reads it and uses it to make a Linux distribution that goes on to power dozens of that trillion-dollar company's products. To be clear, I'm not saying that "you should be outraged," necessarily. It's just an interesting thing.

Imagine being ok with trillion dollar companies using opensource code you wrote, for free. Imagine if the people who work at those companies aren't your enemy. But instead are potential customers and potential collaborators, who see value in your work and want it to succeed. Imagine if there was a good implementation of some idea, expressed as code. And we can all share and contribute to that single good implementati…

I agree.

Being ok with big company participation gets you Linux and / or FreeBSD. Not being ok with it gets you HURD.

I am ok with it.

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