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Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

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Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#101
post #67
post #38

The aspect of ai that makes me think something related is going on, is how artifacts look in image generation systems like stable diffusion. Often these systems will have really bizzare artificats, people with 3 arms, etc. However at the same time when you glance at the output without looking carefully you will sometimes miss these artifacts even though they should be absolutely glaring.

Not sure if I'm missing a subtle nuance in your point but to me those "artifacts" are completely expected. Those artifacts like 3 arms are the patterns / outputs in the model, but since it doesn't have a fundamental understanding of the patterns/objects like arms, it just blends many images of arms together and create things like 3 arms. Also why there are so many eyes, arms, legs and other things in other generative…

> it just blends many images of arms together and create things like 3 arms.. It just spits out the training set in random configurations (ish).

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is doing.

You can see in work like https://twitter.com/lintool/status/1579830653126086656 that the model does have an understanding of what parts of the visual model represent as concepts.

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#102
post #69
post #28

Here's my guess: neurons tap into quantum mechanics but we are too primitive to understand that for now. The brain was initially modeled as humors/fluids back when we developed aqueducts, then telegraph came into the scene and it was modeled as electrical impulses and now computers/ML are popular therefore we see it as a neural network. Next step is quantum.

It's certainly not proven, but there are many hints in that direction, and the hints keep piling up. Recent research [1] on how the classic anaesthetics work (a great mystery!) suggests they operate by inhibiting the entanglement of pairs of electrons in small molecules which split into free radicals, the electrons then physically separated but still-entangled. It seems it is at least possible, that there is speed-of…

> that there is speed-of-light quantum communication within the brain

What does this even mean?

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#103
I fail to see the significance of this "urging of caution". What's next? Will they tell us those are not really analog like neurons and are in fact using binary numbers in their calculations? O the horror!

Who cares? Everyone knows ML models do not reflect the mechanics of how biological brains work at low level. The most obvious is that they use electricity, discrete numbers, much faster refresh rate etc. As a consequence the other low level "implementation details" will differ. The closer to "the hardware" the more differences there will be. I woukd be extremely surprised to see similar encoding, activation waves/patterns as in biological systems in ML for this reason, but also because how different the learning data and even the learning mechanism is. The brain has no backpropagation.

However, there is deep similarity between both and IMO we are not far from AGI(decades at most). There is a measure of similarity between some advanced ML models (stable diffusion in visual, bloom in reasoning) and how our thinking works. This is especially visible when those things break or produce unexpected results in comparison with damaged/psychedelic human brain.

Just like a human performing a math calculation and a computer performing the same calculation are doing essentially the same thing despite vastly different "implementation method", and same as computers helped us advance our understanding of mathematics(and physics etc) ML models will help us understand more about how our own thinking works.

Just as there is something universal in an act of adding two numbers, there is something universal in an act of processing language to derive intent and carry out complex instructions.

The crucial unknown however at this stage is whether our most advanced ML models are indeed using the same universal high level mechanisms we do to understand our input when they demonstrate their incredible capabilities or are they simply some advance method of compressing and searching through the training data? The first stage of answering this question is to determine if there is really a difference. Perhaps all we are, are databases doing an effective search algorithm over our training data?

This is what science hopefully will answer in coming years. In one way the pace of incredible discoveries of those new and bigger models is not leaving the scientific community enough time to study those models fuly. I can imagine many lifetimes could be spent just studying bloom or stable diffusion, but how to do it when new models twice their size show up 6 months later? How to focus on one model and one application of it in this quickly changing environment?Still, I'm very grateful that I can see this progress during my lifetime. While growing up in the 90s I had this feeling of "missed opportunity" that I never saw nor I have taken any part in the computing revolution that happened before I was born, but this new AI revolution certainly makes up for that.

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#104
post #38

The aspect of ai that makes me think something related is going on, is how artifacts look in image generation systems like stable diffusion. Often these systems will have really bizzare artificats, people with 3 arms, etc. However at the same time when you glance at the output without looking carefully you will sometimes miss these artifacts even though they should be absolutely glaring.

Not just image generating systems. Basically all neural network based AIs have a tendency to fail in ways that are very brain-like. GPT-3 produces output that seems to make sense as long as you aren't paying too close attention, image recognition AIs are more likely to mistake a cat for a dog than for something completely unrelated, speech recognition AIs often make very sensible seeming transcription errors, etc. Not to mention how revolutionary NNs have been in solving problems that brains find easy but machines have traditionally struggled with, and how terrible they are at things machines find easy and brains have traditionally struggled with. Maybe there's no relationship between the way NNs work and the way brains do, but the end result certainly seems to be similar.

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#105
post #85
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if I'm missing a subtle nuance in your point but to me those "artifacts" are completely expected. Those artifacts like 3 arms are the patterns / outputs in the model, but since it doesn't have a fundamental understanding of the patterns/objects like arms, it just blends many images of arms together and create things like 3 arms. Also why there are so many eyes, arms, legs and other things in other generative…

> but since it doesn't have a fundamental understanding of the patterns/objects like arms, it just blends many images of arms together and create things like 3 arms. But it rarely would put out say 8 arms. And the repeat artifacts are miles ahead of earlier stuff like clip draw or disco diffusion. So it does seem to have some idea of what's going on, just isn't perfect yet. It gets much worse without the 512x512 reso…

Actually I should have mentioned this in the original post but I think the "3 arms" thing is kind of a bad example come to think of it. I think in general at least with SD, if's very unlikely to create 3 arms or or 8 arms if you for example ask for a person. Mostly it looks like a person because the text prompt maps to training data of persons, and so they will generally look like people with 2 arms.

However, where it struggles I find is with finer details, and also _placement_ of things like arms, eyes, and relationships between them. This I think is because it only has a general idea of the shape of persons but no data for the exact specifics like where the arms, legs, eyes and so on should be placed in a very realistic anatomical way, and this is where I think the challenge is - the gap between a general pattern of a person and an extremely specific but also general one where it can modify it and transform it like a real human artist can. I'm not sure that's in the data exactly

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#106
post #102
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly not proven, but there are many hints in that direction, and the hints keep piling up. Recent research [1] on how the classic anaesthetics work (a great mystery!) suggests they operate by inhibiting the entanglement of pairs of electrons in small molecules which split into free radicals, the electrons then physically separated but still-entangled. It seems it is at least possible, that there is speed-of…

> that there is speed-of-light quantum communication within the brain What does this even mean?

Einstein's spooky action at a distance, between neurons. This is speculative, maybe recklessly so, but one possible interpretation is that these are neurotransmitters. The halves of the entangled pair float off and they bind to different receptors, and do their usual neurotransmitter thing of affecting how the neuron fires. But they are entangled, so theoretically the quantum state of one half could affect the other half and alter the chemical properties of the molecule that contains the other electron. Neurotransmitters signalling through a quantum communication channel. This effect would propagate at light speed, although the subsequent chemical side of it would not.

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#107
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The set of problems that are computable by a classical computer are the same set of problems computable by a quantum computer. I think you might be misstating the Penrose argument/position.

I'm fairly certain I'm giving a passable description of what Penrose claims in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind and and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadows_of_the_Mind I should have said "problems which do not have computable solutions" rather than "set of problems computable by a quantum computer", which seems fairly pedestrian compared to what Penrose is saying.

Those mean very different things, which is why quantum mechanics wouldn’t work for him and he was arguing for new physics.

As to the specifics, let’s just say there’s a reason he was publishing books rather than peer reviewed papers.

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#108
post #76
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you didn't even count the data from million of years of evolution. The brain doesn't come as a blank slate when you're born.

That's literally what I was saying when I wrote "our biases are how evolution managed to do that".

Not sure "biases" gives the evolved structures in our brain enough credit. Maybe the functions of those structures could be emergent, in a large enough network, but that would be very different context to what a human sees in its extremely rapid development. The rapid learning could be from the unique architecture. The free running feedback loop (consciousness) that we have seems like a good example of how different our architecture is, with our ability to continuously prompt ourselves, and learn from those prompts.

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#109

To me one important aspect is the existence of adversarially attacks on neural networks. They essentially prove that the neural network never "understood" its data. It hasn't found some general categories which correspond somewhat to human categories. Human brains can be tricked too, but never this way and never beyond our capacities for rational thought.

> Human brains can be tricked too, but never this way and never beyond our capacities for rational thought.

And yet we're living in the age of misinformation where propaganda spreads like never before. Isn't that essentially an adversarial attack which shows how susceptible humans are to them too?

For the record, i don't think that's NN are brains either. I think our issue to differentiate sufficiently between them is because we don't really know what sentience really is.

Re: Study urges caution when comparing neural networks to the brain

#110

To me one important aspect is the existence of adversarially attacks on neural networks. They essentially prove that the neural network never "understood" its data. It hasn't found some general categories which correspond somewhat to human categories. Human brains can be tricked too, but never this way and never beyond our capacities for rational thought.

> Human brains can be tricked too, but never this way and never beyond our capacities for rational thought.

It's inconceivable to me that humans wouldn't be trickable by exactly the same sort of adversarial inputs-- it's just that because we're not differentiable there is no feasible way to find these inputs.

People have constructed fairly impressive optical illusions based on our understanding of the neural structure of the early stages of vision processing. The fact that we lack more complicated examples like "random images" that make us feel hate or disgust or that we're convinced are our mother is simply due to our lack of understanding and access to the higher neural structures.

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