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Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

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Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The end result is … well, 4Chan. And? Your opinion of whether that's bad is subjective, yet the people there are happy with the result (presumably, as they keep using/visiting it). > Self-moderation" doesn't work, because it's work. So in other words: "I'm too lazy to curate a non-threatening experience for myself which is my responsibility because the offense being taken is my own." Whether or not you're willing t…

1. I didn't imply whether it was good or bad, just that the product you're describing already exists. 2. It's a platform problem. If you make users do work they don't want to do in order to make the platform pleasant to use, they won't do the work, the platform will not be pleasant to use, and they'll use a different platform that doesn't make them do that work. 3. "If they can't handle it, they shouldn't advertise t…

> I didn't imply whether it was good or bad, just that the product you're describing already exists.

A product exists with those properties, but not something like Twitter.

> It's a platform problem.

It's not. I don't use stuff like 4chan because it's not of interest to me but it is of interest to others. There's zero requirement for Twitter to be a universally acceptable platform (that delusion is why there continues to be issues around moderation), just like 4chan needn't cater to everyone.

> There are already unmoderated, "you do the work, not us", "advertisers have to know what they're getting into" platforms

Right. And there's no requirement for Twitter to offer advertising. That's why I think it'd be wise for them to adopt a pay-to-play model instead of chasing that rabbit.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#662

I can speak only at a Star Trek technobabble level on this, but I'd like it if I could mark other random accounts as "friends" or "trusted". Anything they upvote or downvote becomes a factor in whether I see a post or not. I'd also be upvoting/downvoting things, and being a possible friend/trusted. I'd like a little metadata with my posts, such as how controversial my network voted it. The ones that are out of calibr…

It's a great way to create a bubble.

Amusingly, a subreddit I frequent has one notorious user who has abused the 'block' feature to ensure their frequent posts on a particular topic are free of dissenting commenters. They block anyone who even slightly disagrees with their position, this prevents them from seeing his threads, and the comments on each thread become entirely one-sided as a result - and the growing list of blocked people have no idea that those threads even exist.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#663
post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, we can't frame this discussion on only the content. My whatsapp "feed" is doing just fine. The problem are all the other whatsapp groups that I'm not in, which are filled with hateful politics. It hurts when I meet in real life a friend that you haven't met in a while, and then find out that they've been radicalized. The radical Bolsonaro whatsapp groups are a mix of top down and grass roots content. On o…

> The problem are all the other whatsapp groups that I'm not in, which are filled with hateful politics. If you do not like hateful politics, just filter them out - of your own feed. My solution, if implemented, will give you exactly that opportunity.

My feed is already fine; no one is posting hateful politics on the group chats that I am in. The problem is that even if the hateful content doesn't reach me, it's still out there reaching other people. In the US, they ended up with stuff like the Capitol Insurrection. Here in Brazil, as we speak there are disgruntled "stop the steal" extremists blocking roads and calling for a military coup.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#664

At least one missing element is that of reputation . I don't think it should work exactly like it does in the real world, but the absence of it seems to always lead to major problems. The cost of being a jerk online is too low - it's almost entirely free of any consequences. Put another way, not everyone deserves a megaphone. Not everyone deserves to chime in on any conversation they want. The promise of online discu…

I agree with the basic idea that we want reputation, but the classic concept of reputation as a single number in the range (-inf, inf) is useless for solving real-world problems the way we solve them in the real world. Why? Because my reputation in meatspace is precisely 0 with 99.9% of the world's population. They haven't heard of me, and they haven't heard of anyone who has heard of me. Meanwhile, my reputation wit…

So there's 8 billion people in the world approximately. Therefore you're saying that you have reputation (either good or bad) with 8e9 x 0.001 of them. That is 8 million people? Wow, you maintain a very large reputation, actually. I hope it's not bad reputation!

But all jokes aside, you're exactly right. Reputation is only relevant in your closer circles. Having a global reputation score would just be another form of the Twitter blue check mark, but worse.

I want to hear from people that I don't know, the average Joe, not from Hollywood, Fox News persons, or politicians. And I want to hear from reputable people in my circles, but not so much that I'm just hearing from the echo chamber.

Social media is just a really big game that people are playing, where high scores are related to number of followers. So dumb.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#665

At how many tweets in the thread do you just go "maybe I should just write this as a blog post?"

I am having trouble reconciling his one tweet that says there is no truth (adjudicating truth is impossible) and the other tweet saying social media companies have the truth of user behavior, and I'm not being flippant.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#666
post #647

At least one missing element is that of reputation . I don't think it should work exactly like it does in the real world, but the absence of it seems to always lead to major problems. The cost of being a jerk online is too low - it's almost entirely free of any consequences. Put another way, not everyone deserves a megaphone. Not everyone deserves to chime in on any conversation they want. The promise of online discu…

But the how would you address "reputable" people spreading idiotic things or fake news? How would you prevent Joe Rogan spreading COVID conspiracy theories? Or Kanye's antisemitic comments? Or a celebrity hyping up some NFT for a quick cash grab? Or Elon Musk falling for some fake news and spreading it?

This is lumping together multiple problems, but IMO a platform that tries to police wrongthink from the top down is guaranteed to fail.

For my part, I don't think anyone anywhere should be prevented from saying the dumbest things that pop into their heads; what I disagree with is giving everyone a global megaphone and then artificially removing the consequences for saying the dumbest things that pop into their heads. :)

If you have a reputation that is tied to the community in which you are participating, and your reputation affects the reach/visibility of your messages in that community, then as you behave at odds with the standards of that community, your reputation goes down, thus limiting your reach. Exactly how to implement that well is the billion dollar question, but at the heart of it all is a simple feedback loop.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#667
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of right wing / politically conservative subs.

Funny that you never see them on the front page.

IIRC moderators can set their subs to not appear on the front page intentionally. I know that /r/askhistorians did so in order to stem the tide of low effort comments. Given the reddit community's political leanings as a whole, self-removal from the front page is probably the best for everyone involved

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#668
post #586

In the US, where Twitter & Facebook are dominant, the current consensus in the public mind is that political polarization and radicalization are driven by the social media algorithms. However, I have always felt that this explanation was lacking. Here in Brazil we have many of the same problems but the dominant social media are Whatsapp group chats, which have no algorithms whatsoever (other than invisible spam filte…

Everything in that thread seems correct, but it doesn't address why its so bad on social media sufficiently, as those philosophical language and principal problems apply to all forms of written communication that have managed to avoid the problems of social media, including wide open written communication (remember actual bulletin boards instead of virtual bulletin boards? Wide open text forums are not a new thing)

I'm very confident at this point that the problem is the enormous size of the rooms where everyone is talking.

I don't think user behavior will ever be better in a sufficiently large room. Effective communication requires shared context which is impossible to establish when a room is sufficiently large and sufficiently diverse.

What we're seeing with increased political polarization is I think an attempt by most people to differentiate themselves into groups of like minded people not just so they can form echo chambers, but so they can actually talk and be heard, and hear what other people are saying. You don't get that when the room becomes global in scale, you just get a bunch of noise, as is mentioned.

I think we're in a particularly nasty situation in tech because most of the people involved in creating and administering these platforms have a huge blindspot when it comes to the lack of context hopping ability in the average person, because the people that tend to get into tech tend to be very open to global connectivity and actually do have somewhat of a capacity to hop around and absorb a huge range of different contexts (although much more superficially than I think they realize/that's the price of extreme openness).

I am also fairly confident the solution is to create user managed and federated platforms. The problem would I think solve itself if people were better able to control what online social groups they expose themselves to. We've been organizing ourselves for thousands of years into a hierarchical networks of different families/towns/cities/states because those are the only long term stable systems that can deal with the huge variations in contextual difference between people. You can still have egalitarian cosmopolitan global villages for people who want that, and you can still have emissaries and exchange programs and global shared interest channels and encourage cooperation amongst different groups and avoid conflict, but I think the idea of a singular all encompassing global village was always a terribly thought out, completely untenable idea that would never work at scale.

I was going to write an article on this a long time ago after a similar thread came up here, but I don't have any clout and ended up getting swamped in other things, so I never did. Properly making this case would also require a lot of research and historical comparison to really evaluate, but the more time passes, the stronger and stronger my hunch is that we need to do almost exactly the opposite of what most people seem to think we should and allow people to differentiate themselves instead of forcing them to be together and all play by the same rules. The echo chambers will become less echoey if you allow people to build their own and feel safe enough to poke their heads out of when they feel sufficiently understood in their corner. The echo chambers are the result of gamed automated feeds where people are trying to signal I want my space by pulling harder and harder in a direction that makes them less and less likely to be bombarded with stuff they don't want entering their space involuntarily.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the basic idea that we want reputation, but the classic concept of reputation as a single number in the range (-inf, inf) is useless for solving real-world problems the way we solve them in the real world. Why? Because my reputation in meatspace is precisely 0 with 99.9% of the world's population. They haven't heard of me, and they haven't heard of anyone who has heard of me. Meanwhile, my reputation wit…

Social reputation IRL also has transitive properties - vouching from other high-rep people, or group affiliations. Primitive forms of social-graph connectedness have been exposed in social networks but it doesn't seem like they've seen much investment in the past decade.

[deleted]

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, SA has "underperformed" as an internet platform- Lowtax notoriously failed to capitalize on the community and grow it into something bigger (and more lucrative). So it remains a large old-school vBulletin-style internet forum instead of a potential Reddit or even greater, albeit with its culture and soul intact.

Not suggesting you meant it this way, but there's an amusing "money person with blinders on" angle to the statement. It's the "what's the point of anything if you're not making money?!"

Perhaps, but it's not even an HN/startup point of view. Goons regularly make fun of Lowtax for squandering the large audience (some of whom included popular Internet personalities who would go on to reach greater success and celebrity) and lead SA had. It all plays into the "loser admin" mythos.
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