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Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

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Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#371

I recently started my own Discord server and had my first experience in content moderation. The demographics is mostly teenagers. Some have mental health issues. It was the hardest thing ever. In first incident I chose to ignore a certain user being targeted by others for posting repeated messages. The person left a very angry message and left. Comes the second incident, I thought I learnt my lesson. Once a user is t…

How old are you? An adult running a discord server for mentally ill teenagers seems like a cautionary tale from the 1990s about chatrooms.

I'm afraid I'm too young to understand that reference or context around chatrooms.

Anyway, the Discord server is purely for business and professional purposes. And I use the same username everywhere including Discord, so it's pretty easy to verify my identity.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SA is also not the font of internet culture that it once was, either, so clearly the price of admission is not sufficient to make it successful. It seems to me it was, at most, a partial contributor.

Also, SA has "underperformed" as an internet platform- Lowtax notoriously failed to capitalize on the community and grow it into something bigger (and more lucrative). So it remains a large old-school vBulletin-style internet forum instead of a potential Reddit or even greater, albeit with its culture and soul intact.

Not suggesting you meant it this way, but there's an amusing "money person with blinders on" angle to the statement. It's the "what's the point of anything if you're not making money?!"

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#373

Every single social media platform that has ever existed makes the same fundamental mistake. They believe that they just have to remove or block the bad actors and bad content and that will make the platform good. The reality is everyone , myself included, can be and will be a bad actor. How do you build and run a "social media" product when the very act of letting anyone respond to anyone with anything is itself the…

Charge them $10 to create an account (anonymous, real, parody whatever), then if they break a rule give them a warning, 2 rule breaks, a 24 hour posting suspension, 3 strikes and permanently ban the account. Let them reregister for $10. Congrats, i just solved spam, bots, assholes and permanent line steppers.

The problem is the meaning of those rules. Any rule looks reasonable when it is written down. And after some time it becomes a weapon.

For instance, the three deletions (forget the exact term) rule in wikipedia. It is now a tool used by “the first to write”…

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/r/srd and /r/againsthatesubreddits exist with the explicit purpose of brigading other subs, and yet they are not banned.

SRD has an explicit "no brigading other subs" rule. How is their explicit purpose brigading other subs?

Kiwifarms has an explicit "don't interact with the subjects" rule. Does that mean it never happens?

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#375
post #219

I've had to give this some thought for other reasons, and after a couple decades solving analogous problems to moderation in security, I agree with yishan about signal to noise over the specific content, but what I have effectively spent a career studying and detecting with data is a single factor: malice. It's something every person is capable of, and it takes a lot of exercise and practice with higher values to rea…

For me, malice relates to intent. Intent isn't observable. When person X makes a claim about Y's intent, they're almost always filling in invisible gaps using their imagination. You can't moderate on that basis. We have to go by effects, not intent ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... ). It took me a long time to learn that if I tell a user "you were being $FOO" where $FOO relates to thei…

This aspect of people writing what they meant again after being challenged and it being different - I'd assert that when there is malice (or another intent) present, they double down or use other tactics toward a specific end other than improving the forum or relationship they are contributing to. When there is none, you get that different or broader answer, which is really often worth it. However, yes it is intent, as you identify.

I have heard the view that intent is not observable, and I agree with the link examples that the effect of a comment is the best available heuristic. It is also consistent with a lot of other necessary and altruistic principles to say it's not knowable. On detecting malice from data, however, the security business is predicated on detecting intent from network data, so while it's not perfect, there are precedents for (more-) structured data.

I might refine it to say that intent is not passively observable in a reliable way, as if you interrogate the source, we get revealed intent. On the intent taking place in the imagination of the observer, that's a deep question.

I think I have reasonably been called out on some of my views being the artifacts of the logic of underlying ideas that may not have been apparent to me. I've also challenged authors with the same criticism, where I think there are ideas that are sincere, and ones that are artifacts of exogenous intent and the logic of other ideas, and that there is a way of telling the difference by interrogating the idea (via the person.)

I even agree with the principle of not assuming malice, but professionally, my job has been to assess it from indirect structured data (a hawkish, is this an attack?) - whereas I interpret the moderator role as assessing intent directly by its effects, but from unstructured data (is this comment/person causing harm?).

Malice is the example I used because I think it has persisted in roughly its same meaning since the earliest writing, and if that subset of effectively 'evil' intent only existed in the imaginations of its observers, there's a continuity of imagination and false consciousness about their relationship to the world that would be pretty radical. I think it's right to not assume malice, but fatal to deny it.

Perhaps there is a more concrete path to take than my conflating it with the problem of evil, even if on these discussions of global platform rules, it seems like a useful source of prior art?

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SRD has an explicit "no brigading other subs" rule. How is their explicit purpose brigading other subs?

"Hey guys no brigading okay? ;-)" followed by a page which directly links to threads for people to brigade. They don't even bother to use the np.reddit "no participation" domain. Most other subs don't even allow you to link outside the sub, because they've been warned by admins about brigading. Their rules barely even mention brigading: https://www.reddit.com/r/subredditdrama/wiki/rules , and you have to go to the ex…

> Most other subs don't even allow you to link outside the sub, because they've been warned by admins about brigading.

I joined reddit in 2005 and have moderated several subreddits. The admins have never imposed anything resembling that on any subreddit I have moderated. I have a suspicion they impose it when they see a large amount of brigading behavior.

Perhaps it's not applied in an entirely fair or even manner, but I suspect it's only applied when there's an actual problem.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this idea rests on the foundation of "shame." But there are entire groups of users that not only don't feel shame about their activities, but are proud of them.

But those users would be left alone in their pride in the put-up-or-shut-up model, because everybody else would see the mistakes of that user and abandon them. So the shame doesn't have to be effective for the individual, it just has to convince the majority that the user is in the wrong.

Right. To put it another way, this "put up or shut up" system, in my mind, isn't even really there to convince the person who got moderated that they were in the wrong. It's to convince the rest of the community that the moderation decision was unbiased and correct.

These news articles about "platform X censors people with political views Y" are about generating mass outrage from a comparatively small number of moderation decisions. While sure, it would be good for the people who are targeted by those moderation decisions to realize "yeah, ok, you're right, I was being a butthole", I think it's much more important to try to show the reactionary angry mob that things are aboveboard.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#378

I recently started my own Discord server and had my first experience in content moderation. The demographics is mostly teenagers. Some have mental health issues. It was the hardest thing ever. In first incident I chose to ignore a certain user being targeted by others for posting repeated messages. The person left a very angry message and left. Comes the second incident, I thought I learnt my lesson. Once a user is t…

Mental illness or not, your interactions with users in a service with a block button are all voluntary. Unless someone is going out of their own way to drag drama out of Discord, or god forbid, into real life, it tends to be best to just let it happen, as they are entirely willingly participating in it and the escape is just a button away.

Community defined by the most aggressive people that come in tend to be the one where everyone else voluntarily leaves, cause leaving is much better for them.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#379

I recently started my own Discord server and had my first experience in content moderation. The demographics is mostly teenagers. Some have mental health issues. It was the hardest thing ever. In first incident I chose to ignore a certain user being targeted by others for posting repeated messages. The person left a very angry message and left. Comes the second incident, I thought I learnt my lesson. Once a user is t…

How old are you? An adult running a discord server for mentally ill teenagers seems like a cautionary tale from the 1990s about chatrooms.

> An adult running a discord server for mentally ill teenagers seems like a cautionary tale from the 1990s about chatrooms

It sounds like a potential setup for exploitation, grooming, cult recruitment, etc. (Not saying the grandparent is doing this, for all I know their intentions are entirely above board-but other people out there likely are doing it for these kinds of reasons.)

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#380
post #362

I recently started my own Discord server and had my first experience in content moderation. The demographics is mostly teenagers. Some have mental health issues. It was the hardest thing ever. In first incident I chose to ignore a certain user being targeted by others for posting repeated messages. The person left a very angry message and left. Comes the second incident, I thought I learnt my lesson. Once a user is t…

Imo, some people leaving is not necessary bad thing. Like, some people are looking for someone to bully. Either you allow them bully or they leave. The choice determines overall culture of you community. And sometimes people are looking for a fight and will search it until they find it ... and then leave.

And sometimes people are looking for a fight and will search it until they find it ... and then leave.

I've found the more likely result is that people looking for a fight will find it, and then stay because they've found a target and an audience. Even if the audience is against them (and especially so if moderators are against them), for some people that just feeds their needs even more.

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