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Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

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261–270 of 975 posts

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#261
> there will be NO relation between the topic of the content and whether you moderate it, because itʻs the specific posting behavior thatʻs a problem

I get why Yishan wants to believe this, but I also feel like the entire premise of this argument is then in some way against a straw man version of the problem people are trying to point to when they claim moderation is content-aware.

The issue, truly, isn't about what the platform moderates so much as the bias between when it bothers to moderate and when it doesn't.

If you have a platform that bothers to filter messages that "hate on" famous people but doesn't even notice messages that "hate on" normal people--even if the reason is just that almost no one sees the latter messages and so they don't have much impact and your filters don't catch it--you have a (brutal) class bias.

If you have a platform that bothers to filter people who are "repetitively" anti large classic tech companies for the evil things they do trying to amass money and yet doesn't filter people who are "repetitively" anti crypto companies for the evil things they do trying to amass money--even if it feels to you as the moderator that the person seems to have a point ;P--that is another bias.

The problem you see in moderation--and I've spent a LONG time both myself being a moderator and working with people who have spent their lives being moderators, both for forums and for live chat--is that moderation and verification of everything not only feels awkward but simply doesn't scale, and so you try to build mechanisms to moderate enough that the forum seems to have a high enough signal-to-noise ratio that people are happy and generally stay.

But the way you get that scale is by automating and triaging: you build mechanisms involving keyword filters and AI that attempt to find and flag low signal comments, and you rely on reports from users to direct later attention. The problem, though, is that these mechanisms inherently have biases, and those biases absolutely end up being inclusive of biases that are related to the content.

Yishan seems to be arguing that perfectly-unbiased moderation might seem biased to some people, but he isn't bothering to look at where or why moderation often isn't perfect to ensure that moderation actually works the way he claims it should, and I'm telling you: it never does, because moderation isn't omnipresent and cannot be equally applied to all relevant circumstances. He pays lip service to it in one place (throwing Facebook under the bus near the end of the thread), and yet fails to then realize this is the argument.

At the end of the day, real world moderation is certainly biased. And maybe that's OK! But we shouldn't pretend it isn't biased (as Yishan does here) or even that that bias is always in the public interest (as many others do). That bias may, in fact, be an important part of moderating... and yet, it can also be extremely evil and difficult to discern from "I was busy" or "we all make mistakes" as it is often subconscious or with the best of intentions.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I saw David Sacks tweet: “ The entitled elite is not mad that they have to pay $8/month. They’re mad that anyone can pay $8/month.” There must be quite a few people in here who are well versed in customer relations, at least in the context of a startup, can anyone explain to me why Musk and Sacks seem to have developed the strategy of insulting their customers and potential customers? I can think of two reasons…

Aside from the weird elite baiting rhetoric, does this mean that blue checkmark no longer means "yes, this is that famous person/thing you've heard of, not an impersonator" but now just means "this person gave us 8 dollars?"

I don't know if this has been clear yet. Or less than famous person/thing, do you have to submit ID / use real name to get verified.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#263

Every single social media platform that has ever existed makes the same fundamental mistake. They believe that they just have to remove or block the bad actors and bad content and that will make the platform good. The reality is everyone , myself included, can be and will be a bad actor. How do you build and run a "social media" product when the very act of letting anyone respond to anyone with anything is itself the…

> The reality is everyone, myself included, can be and will be a bad actor. But you likely aren't, and most people likely aren't either. That's the entire premise behind removing bad actors and spaces that allow bad actors to grow.

We have laws around mobs and peaceful protest for a reason. Even the best people can become irrational as a group. The groupmind is what we need controls for: not good and bad people.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#264
> Machine learning algorithms are able to accurate identify spam

Nope. Not even close.

> and itʻs not because they are able to tell itʻs about Viagra or mortgage refinancing

Funny, because they can't even tell that.

Which is why mail is being ruined by google and microsoft. Yes you could argue that they have incentives to do just that. But that doesn't change the fact that they can't identify spam.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#265
post #154
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And hilariously he starts with "How do you solve the content moderation problems on Twitter?" and never actually answer it. Just rambles on about a dissection of the problem. Guess we know now why content moderation was never "solved" at Reddit, nor will it ever be.

He kinda did in roundabout way; the "perfect" moderation, even if possible, will turn it into nice and cultured place to have discussion and that doesn't bring controversy and sell ads . You would have way less media "journalists" making a fuss about what someone said on that social network and would have problems just getting it to be popular, let alone displace any of the big ones. It would maybe be possible with e…

> the "perfect" moderation, even if possible, will turn it into nice and cultured place to have discussion and that doesn't bring controversy and sell ads.

That's not a solution though since every for profit business is generally seeking to maximize profit, and furthermore we already knew this to be the case - nothing he is saying is novel. I guess that's where I'm confused.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit tried to just let communities moderate themselves. It resulted in rampant child pornography, doxxing, death threats, gory violence etc. It epitomised the worst of humanity. Now the Reddit admins keep a watch on moderators and if their subreddits do not meet site-wide standards they are replaced.

> It resulted in rampant child pornography, doxxing, death threats, gory violence etc. It epitomised the worst of humanity. It resulted in reddit. That style of moderation is how reddit became reddit; so it should also get credit for whatever you think is good about reddit. The new (half-decade old) reddit moderation regime was a new venture that was hoping to retain users who were initially attracted by the old mode…

You mean it resulted in the place that couldn't pay the bills and goes around asking for VC money to keep the servers on?

Unmoderated hell holes tend to have to survive on questionable funding and rarely grow to any size.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#267
post #100

His argument makes no sense. If this is indeed why they are banning people, why keep the reasoning a secret? Honestly, every ban should come with a public explanation from the network, in order to deter similar behavior. The way things are right now, it's unclear if, when, and for what reason someone will be banned. People get banned all the time with little explanation or explanations that make no sense or are incon…

> Honestly, every ban should come with a public explanation from the network, in order to deter similar behavior This only works on non-adversarial systems. Anywhere else, it will be like handing over to bad actors (i.e. people whose interests will never align with operator's) a list of blindspots

"You have been found guilty of crimes in $State. Please submit yourself to $state_prison on the beginning of the next month. We're sorry, but we cannot tell you what you are guilty of."

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#269

Did he begin answering the question, drop some big philosophical terms, and then just drift off into here is what I think we should do about climate change in 4 steps...?

Yes, he is leveraging his audience. This like going to a conference with a big-name keynote, but the lunch sponsor gets up and speaks for 5 minutes first.

We're on the thread to read about content moderation. But since we're there, he's going to inject a few promos about what he is working on now. Just like other ads, I skimmed past them until he got back on track with the main topic.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#270

I can speak only at a Star Trek technobabble level on this, but I'd like it if I could mark other random accounts as "friends" or "trusted". Anything they upvote or downvote becomes a factor in whether I see a post or not. I'd also be upvoting/downvoting things, and being a possible friend/trusted. I'd like a little metadata with my posts, such as how controversial my network voted it. The ones that are out of calibr…

I would frame it more the opposite: I can easily see comments that are worthless to me, and I want to automatically downvote any comments by the same user (perhaps needs tags: there are users whose technical opinions are great, but I’m not interested at all in their jokes or politics).

One problem with your idea is that moderation votes are anonymous, but ranking up positively or negatively depending on another users votes would allow their votes to be deanonymised.

Perhaps adding in deterministic noise would be enough to offset that? Or to prevent deanonimisation you need a minimum number of posting friends?

In fact I would love to see more noise added to the HN comments and a factor to offset early voting. Late comments get few votes because they have low visibility, which means many great comments don’t bubble to the top.

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